CHAPDISC: HBP30, The White Tomb

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165740

<snip a_svirn's accurate and concise summary>
 
> 1.  Do you find the Patil Twins' and Seamus' parents' attitude 
reasonable or overprotective? Although the school has been penetrated
by death eaters there is no mention of extra security measures taken
or Aurors posted. Do you suppose there weren't any?

Carol responds:
I can understand the parents' attitude. They thought that their
children were safely under the protection of Dumbledore, and now Death
Eaters have penetrated the school and Dumbledore is dead. I'm glad
that Seamus's mother (his Muggle father seems to be out of the
picture) let him stay, but maybe she wouldn't have if he'd been eleven
rather than seventeen.

As for security precautions at the funeral, many Order members and
some Aurors are there, not to mention ex-Auror Rufus Scrimgeour. I
don't think that the DEs or Voldemort would dare to act in the
presence of so many people, almost all of them armed with wands. But
I'm concerned that some of the security precautions seem to have been
lifted, including the anti-flying spell (either it was permanently
rather than temporarily lifted by Dumbledore when he and Harry flew in
or it was lifted again to let in Madame Maxime's flying horses and
carriage). I hope it's put back on after Madame Maxime leaves Hogwarts
or Hogwarts is again vulnerable to invasion by broom. (LV and the
Death Eaters taking over an empty Hogwarts would be almost as bad as
taking the students hostage. They'd be nearly invulnerable.) On a
sidenote, I'm also concerned about Madame Maxime's carriage calling
attention to Fleur and Bill's wedding, which needs, IMO, to be a
small, private affair with as few people attending as possible. If
it's publicized, or if a carriage the size of a house is seen heading
for the Burrow, the wedding party is likely to be attacked. I'm also
concerned because a certain rat named Peter Pettigrew can get into
Hogwarts through the secret passages, including the one that's blocked.

> 2.    What do you think of Bill's part-transformation? Do you find
it sinister?

Carol:
Not sinister. I was touched by Fleur's continued love for Bill and by
her and Molly's moment of mutual understanding. But the Weasleys,
including Bill, aren't safe yet. I think Bill will have a role to play
in relation to the goblins and curse-breaking, just as Charlie will in
relation to dragons, but I'll be surprised if both of them reach the
Epilogue alive. On a sidenote, I'll bet our anti-Dark Arts Healer.
Severus Snape, would have done a better job than Madam Pomfrey of
removing the Dark magic from Bill's scars, but unfortunately, he won't
have that chance. But I don't think Bill will come evil or have any
dangerous tendencies at full moon. Maybe he'll help Lupin learn to
prepare Wolfbane Potion. <wink>

> 3.    What do you make of Harry's mood at the beginning of the
chapter? Is his apathy a way to cope with the shock of Dumbledore's
death, or was he damaged irrevocably in some ways?

Carol:
Oh, Harry will come around. He always does. I think the funeral was a
healing experience for him. He's learning to feel compassion and
appreciation for people he underestimated before, notably Neville and
Luna. The only remaining obstacle to the Love he needs to feel for the
WW as a whole in order to represent them and act for them against
Voldemort is his hatred of Snape.

> 4.    It has been discussed extensively, but still. Is Harry right 
in thinking that Snape followed the same pattern as Voldemort? Does
 proclaiming oneself a Half-Blood Prince mean renouncing one's muggle
 heritage?

Carol:
Harry has never understood Snape, but he's had glimpses of young
Severus through the Occlumency lessons and the HBP's Potions book. I
think he'll need more glimpses and an understanding of the adult Snape
before he can defeat Voldemort. Right now, he's still oversimplifying,
arriving at answers that match his view of Snape as evil and loyal to
Voldemort. I do think there are parallels between Snape and Voldemort
as there are parallels between Harry and Voldemort. What Harry needs
to see is the third pairing, the parallels between Snape and himself.
As for Teen!Severus's proclaiming himslef the Half-Blood Prince, I
think that was a statement of his own worth made primarily for his own
benefit in relation to his relatives, the Pure-blood Princes, who
evidently neglected and undervalued him given that he grew up looking
pale and straggly like a plant left in the dark (a description not all
that different from that of Harry at the beginning of OoP, something
about the slightly unhealthy look of someone who's grown several
inches in a short time). I don't think that Snape has ever fully or
formally renounced his Muggle heritage or he'd never refer to himself
as a Half-Blood or live in a Muggle neighborhood. Nor have we ever
heard him talk about blood purity except for the one moment when he
calls Lily a "filthy little Mudblood" under duress. He is, however,
concerned with keeping the WW a secret from the Muggles, as revealed
by his reaction to the Flying Ford Anglia incident.

> 5.    Do you agree with Hermione that Snape held his peace about 
the book only because by exposing Harry he would inevitably expose
himself?

Carol:
No. All he would expose is that he's the author of Sectumsempra if he
revealed anything at all, and he was a kid at the time. It's not his
fault that Harry used the spell on Draco without knowing what it was.
He could have punctured Harry's reputation with Slughorn by revealing
that those Potions hints were his own, but he chose not to do so. I
think that he wanted to keep an eye on Harry himself and make sure
that he stayed well away from Draco. It would have been interesting,
however, if he'd told Harry on the spot whose Potions book that was. I
think Harry would have been more than willing to surrender his book to
Snape if he knew that it was Snape's. Too bad Snape didn't tell him
exactly how he knew that Harry was lying about finding that spell in a
library book.

> 6.    Why does Hermione object to the word "evil"? Incidentally, 
the words she actually uses can be at best described as 
understatements – "nasty sense of humour" indeed! Why is she being so
guarded?

Carol:
First of all, she's right. The Prince isn't evil, and much of the book
is either genuine Potions improvements resulting from a studious
teenage boy's research or useful spells like Muffliato or minor hexes
like the toenail hex and Langlock. The hexes and the Bezoar joke do
demonstrate a slightly nasty sense of humor little different from,
say, Ron's. (And HBP!Harry reminds me of James, hexing people in the
hallways. No wonder he thought the HBP might be his dad--same "nasty"
sense of humor.) The only Dark spell or other element in the book that
we know of is Sectumsempra, and it's the product of a desire for
revenge not all that different from Harry's or Sirius Black's. As for
Hermione's being "guarded," she probably doesn't want to risk his
anger by reminding him that he used Sectumsempra or by defending the
teenage Snape. But I hope it's a sign that she's going to look a
little deeper into Snape's past, maybe finding out things that Harry
will need to know. Maybe she'll spot the holes in his version of the
events on the tower as well.

> 7.    Here is another thing that has been much discussed but should
 to be addressed again. The chapter is about a funeral, but what kind
of funeral is this? A Christian funeral? A secular one? Something
else? The "little man in black robes" may or may not be a minister or
a priest – Rowling's description of him seems deliberately ambivalent.
It is as though she wants us to wonder about the status of religion in
the Potterverse, and is never going to enlighten us on  the subject.
Now, why is that?

and

> 8.    We are specifically told that this is the first funeral Harry
 has ever attended. Can we judge of the death rites in the Potterverse
 by this ceremony? Since Hagrid wanted to bury Aragog in order give 
him "a proper send-off", one can assume that for Hagrid, at least, 
burial is the proper way of disposition of the dead. Do wizards 
usually bury their dead or do they usually cremate them? 

Carol:
To answer the second question first, it appears that wizards are
usually buried. The Dementors buried what they thought was the body of
Barty Crouch Jr. and his mother had a small, private funeral after
Crouch Sr. faked her death and now has an empty grave. (I assume it
contains an empty casket, but maybe it's just a gravestone marking
nothing.) But there's no evidence of cremation. Even Dumbledore's
spontaneous combustion or whatever it was results in a tomb, not an
urn. As for religion and the ministerlike man, it does seem that the
funeral is secular or secularized, yet the wizards celebrate a
secularized Christmas and Easter and use mild oaths like "damn,"
"hell," and "good Lord," all derived from Christianity. The portraits
include monks and one of the ghosts is the Fat Friar. Everywhere there
are vestiges of Christianity (including Christmas carols rather
mangled by everyone from Sirius Black to Peeves). The WW seems like a
post-Christian world not all that different from twentieth-century
England. If the books were set in the nineteenth-century, I'm sure
that Christmas would remind us of a Dickens story, complete with
churchbells. And yet there's that odd bit about Harry being baptised
and Sirius Black being his godfather. Is JKR, a Christian herslef,
being held back by the forces of political correctness from making the
WW Christian? Or is she remembering the pagan influences on
Christianity, specifically Catholicism, and on the celebration of such
holidays as Christmas, Easter, and Halloween, and trying to make the
WW a blend of Christian and pagan influences? We do have, after all,
Tarot cards and prophecies and mythological creatures from a variety
of cultures and the Veil, which seems to mark a passage to the
Underworld like something out of a pagan rather than a Christian
world. One thing is certain. There's such a thing as a soul in the WW
and, unless it's sucked by a Dementor, it's immortal. Death is not the
end of all things but "the next great adventure." I don't know where
all this leads, but I think the existence of God is implied but not
stated in the books. If JKR lived in another time, she would not have
been so hesitant to make the outlook of the books overtly Christian,
and fundamentalist Christians would not have so profoundly
misunderstood them.

> 9.    Did the funeral go as planned? Some, at least, of the
onlookers were genuinely shocked when Dumbledore's body combusted. And
another thing, did it ignite all by itself, or did somebody set  fire
to it?

Carol:
I think it went exactly as planned, tomb, apparent combustion, and
all, or Hagrid would have been in hysterics. But who or what caused
the combustion to happen, I have no idea.

> 10.    This has been discussed a lot, but must be asked again here.
What about that white smoke taking the shape of a phoenix? Was it
Fawkes? Was it the essence of Dumbledore, for want of a better word? 
Or something (-one) else?

Carol:
It wasn't Fawkes, who is immortal and will, I think, become Harry's in
DH. My present thought--subject to revision in response on other
people's ideas--is that the smokelike Phoenix was the spirit of
Dumbledore taking flight to the other world. (Cf. Saruman's spirit
trying to enter the Uttermost West, except that DD's spirit is not
refused entry to heaven or whatever lies beyond the Veil.) I'm hoping
that a similar Phoenix will become Snape's new Patronus.

> 11.    In a way the White Tomb is the true "magic brethren" 
monument. Virtually everyone came to pay their respects to 
Dumbledore, the entire Ministry, the denizen of Hogsmead and Diagon
Alley, the representatives from the WW abroad, the centaurs, the
merpeople, even the Castle ghosts. Yet there were few conspicuous
absences. Goblins did not come, and no mention has been made about 
house-elves. Do you think that is significant?

Carol:
I hadn't thought about it, but it does suggest that the Goblins may
have allied themselves with Voldemort. As for the house-elves, it's
surprising that they didn't turn out in force, and especially odd that
Dobby doesn't seem to have been present. As for the others, we're
supposed to note that bartender/Aberforth is there--and the horrible
hypocrite umbridge. I like the fact that Fudge looks miserable;
apparently, he realizes that he should have listened to Dumbledore. (I
like Fudge, actually, even though he was an idiot at the end of Gof
and a, well, git throughout OoP. Now that he's out from under
Umbridge's influence, I think he'll prove a useful ally to the Order
and even to Harry if Harry will forgive him.)

> 12.    From what Scrimgeour let slip, one might conclude that some
kind of investigation is going on. Can the captured death eater be of
> any use in book 7?

Carol:
First, there should be two captured Death Eaters, Brutal-Face (Yaxley,
I'll bet five sickles on it) and Fenrir Greyback, and Brutal-Face was
Petrified, not Stupefied, but whether the error is Scrimgeour's or
JKR's is unclear. But it will be interesting if the MoM hears
Brutal-Face's testimony regarding the events on the tower, especially
regarding Draco, and his description of DD's body going over the
battlements. Will anyone have the wits to examine this AK and wonder
why it doesn't behave normally? I'd love to have someone intelligent,
perhaps Scrimgeour, put Brutal-Face's memory in a Pensieve and see
exactly what happened. Too bad Madam Bones, who was objective and
fair, isn't around to explore it.

> 13.    Why is Scrimgeour so adamant about Stan Shunpike's fate?
Surely his release is a small price to pay for Harry's cooperation?

Carol:
I have no idea. Scrimgeour and his motives are a mystery to me, but
maybe Harry will visit Stan in prison? No idea where JKR is going with
this particular sub-subplot.

> 14.    There is something odd about the way Ginny accepts Harry's
decision, while Ron and Hermione refuse to do so. Even stranger, Harry
does not really attempt to talk them out of sharing his destiny. (And
still more strange seems his surprise at Ron and Hermione's reaction.)
Does it mean that for Harry (and even for Rowling) friendship is
something infinitely more important than love? Even so, Ginny is not
just a girlfriend; she is a friend as well.

Carol:
Ginny may be a friend, but she's not a close friend. HRH have been
sharing adventures since SS/PS. Harry should know by now that they'll
want to be with him no matter what, but he couldn't even figure out
that Ron has always wanted him to be with Ginny. He's really not very
good at understanding how other people think, whether the person is
Cho or Ron or Seamus or Snape. But, yes, I think JKR values friendship
above everything except courage, certainly above the hormonal
aberration that passes for love among teenagers.

> 15.    The last two chapters of the book allude very distinctly to
Shakespeare's "The Phoenix and the Turtle."  The phoenix lament, the
anthem, and the central episode with the funeral fire. Is this
supposed to be a clue to the relationship between Fawkes and Dumbledore?

Carol:
I'm not going to attempt to discuss "The Phoenix and the Turtle"
(which, BTW, refers to a turtledove, not a reptile, and its "chaste
marriage" to a Phoenix, the Phoenix being the female partner) in
relation to HBP. I'll just say that Fawkes is linked not only to
Dumbledore but to Gryffindor House (note his colors) and to Harry via
the core of his wand. Fawkes came through for Harry, on Dumbledore's
orders, I'm sure, in CoS. The Phoenix feather and Phoenix song played
a role in the graveyard scene in GoF, saving Harry when no one and
nothing else could. (The echoes of Voldemort's victims could not have
saved Harry without the Priori Incantatem effect produced by the
brother wands with their shared Phoenix-feather cores.) I think that
Fawkes is grieving for Dumbledore, transforming his grief into
something beautiful that heals the hearts of other mourners ("Our
sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought"). I don't think
we've seen the last of Fawkes. Maybe he'll swallow an AK for Harry or
heal him again (as in CoS and GoF) with his tears. And see my remarks
in other posts regarding the symbolism of the Phoenix feather core in
relation to the yew and holly wood wands of Voldemort and Harry.

Carol, thanking  a_svirn for her thought-provoking and original
questions and feeling a bit sad because this is the last chapter