The Green Goo Again, and a new(!) view of the Tower (long)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165781

Pippin wrote:
> Bet you a butterbeer I know why Dumbledore seemed to know so much
about that nasty green potion in the cave -- he knew the guy who
invented it. Not Voldemort, of course, but the erstwhile ESE!Snape.
>
> <snip> Snape could have told Dumbledore all about it when he
defected. Dumbledore could then recognize it from Snape's
description, do that little spell only to confirm that this was indeed
the nasty stuff Severus had told him about, and know immediately what
he could and couldn't do.
>
> He could also know that it will take some time to kill him and that
Severus keeps the antidote prepared, just in case.
>
> That would be why he wants Snape and *only* Snape to attend to him.
It would also mean that Dumbledore made the decision to die rather
than get help at the moment when he froze Harry. It had nothing to do
with the vow, IMO. It had to do with not outing DDM!Snape.
>
> Yes, maybe JohnWayne!Snape could have saved Dumbledore. But with
DE's in the castle, Draco and Harry as eyewitnesses, with Rosmerta
already aware that Dumbledore was dangerously ill, Snape couldn't have
done it without revealing his true allegiance. And if he did, then vow
or no vow, the one 'who I believe has left me forever' would be
*dead*. If the vow didn't kill him, Voldemort would. The vow is
really a beautiful piece of misdirection on JKR's part, to make us
forget that if Snape reveals himself as Dumbledore's man he's going to
be dead anyway. <snip>
>
> If we allow any legilimency between Dumbledore and Snape, then
Dumbledore could easily tell Snape what had happened -- even if
Dumbledore hasn't mastered Voldemort's trick of inserting entirely
imaginary conversations into other people's minds, Dumbledore need
only visualize the potion's name in writing for Snape to see it.

Carol responds:
Or an image of the potion itself? BTW, we do have evidence of looks of
mutual understanding between *Harry* and DD (GoF), and Harry's attempt
to convey a verbal message to Snape via Legilimency in OoP, which may
or may not have worked (its effectiveness is masked by the spoken
message a moment later, which Snape clearly did understand).
>
Pippin:
> Snape can know there's little chance of saving Dumbledore now. And
he can know that he was in a way the instrument of Dumbledore's death.
>
> Thus the look of hatred and revulsion as he prepares the ruse that
will preserve Dumbledore from Fenrir and preserve the illusion of
ESE!Snape.

Carol:
Or prepares to kill him because, between the vow and the potion, he
has no choice for the reasons you've cited and others. And, of course,
he has to get him off the tower, especially if he's going to die from
the poison rather than the (fake?) AK. And the closed eyes indicate
that this is no normal AK, as does first blasting and then floating
him over the battlements to what appears to be a soft landing.
>
Pippin:
> Snape doesn't mind being called a coward for not fighting. He's
following Dumbledore's orders and getting the DE's out of the castle
before they can do any more harm. But he screams "DON'T" when Harry
calls him a killer, and then follows up with "CALL ME A COWARD!" which
hides the real reason for his anguish. He is by no means a coward. He
is leaving his friend, Dumbledore, to face death alone, so that he can
obey his friend's last wish and save Draco who has rejected him, and
Harry whom he despises.

Carol:
Agreed here on the first four sentences regardless of how DD died. And
I like the last sentence as a clincher for DDM!Snape that those who
can't accept a DDM!Snape who AKs DD because of the vow may be able to
accept. (How about it, Sherry? Not self-preservation on Snape's part
but an inability to save Dumbledore and a determination to do what DD
wants at the expense of his own freedom and the trust of the Order?
his soul wouldn't be split in this version because he wouldn't have
intentionally killed dumbledore, only allowed him to die, very much
against his will, from the potion he created?)

But I still can't quite get past DD deliberately drinking the stuff.
He must not have expected to find it there, and he must have thought
that the Horcrux was real. I think he would only have come down to
your reasoning once he recognized the potion and determined that it
was indeed Snape's. (If you're right, that is. I'm still not sure.)
>
Pippin:
> So ::takes deep breath:: even if Dumbledore died of the poison,
Snape may have killed Dumbledore, or at least contributed materially
to the means of his death.
>
> If Snape invented the potion and Dumbledore died of it, we get a
whole tragedy of sin coming home to roost without losing the reality
of Snape's attempt to redeem himself.

Carol responds:
It certainly makes Snape's position even more tragic and ironic, his
own work as a DE coming around to haunt him with unendurable remorse.
And we get a reason for Snape's return to Dumbledore and for remorse
that precedes Godric's Hollow (something to do with the death of
Regulus?) and for Dumbledore's trust in him. But it doesn't by any
means answer all our questions. How can we link all this to RAB (and
Bellatrix, who claims to have been entrusted with LV's "most
precious--" treasures? Secrets? Whatever she started to say, she
doesn't share it with Snape, nor does she believe that LV would
confide in him as he in in her. And it makes sense for Bellatrix, a
former Black, to be linked with the same Horcrux as RAB, her cousin,
who seems to have stashed the real Horcrux in 12 GP before he had a
chance to attempt to destroy it. (Could Reggie have died a slow death
from Severus's poison? Doesn't seem to fit the few facts we have. I
got the impression (from brother Sirius) that Reggie was AKd by Death
Eaters, and I still think that his was the death that young Snape
witnessed, the one that enabled him to see Thestrals.

I almost like this theory, especially in terms of DD's wanting Harry
to fetch Severus and only Severus. But I still don't think DD knew
that the Horcrux was fake. I can't imagine him exposing Harry to the
danger of the Inferi or making him forcefeed DD poison, risking both
their deaths for a fake Horcrux. And whose memory is DD reliving? Is
there a way it can be Snape's own? Also, I don't think we can dismiss
the UV quite that easily. It's surely more than a red herring, as
indicated by all that sinister imagery of flames and bonds at the
close of "Spinner's End."

Carol, intrigued but not fully convinced by this possibility