The Green Goo Again, and a new(!) view of the Tower (long)

[cdayr]

No: HPFGUIDX 165788

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Pippin wrote:
> Bet you a butterbeer I know why Dumbledore seemed to know so much
about that nasty green potion in the cave -- he knew the guy who
invented it. Not Voldemort, of course, but the erstwhile ESE!Snape.

> <snip> Snape could have told Dumbledore all about it when he
defected. Dumbledore could then recognize it from Snape's
description, do that little spell only to confirm that this was 
indeed
the nasty stuff Severus had told him about, and know immediately what
he could and couldn't do.
>
> He could also know that it will take some time to kill him and that
Severus keeps the antidote prepared, just in case.
>
> That would be why he wants Snape and *only* Snape to attend to him.
 
Celia: 
I want to get on board with this one. It fits nicely into my view of 
Snape as a man with so many regrets and pitfalls in his life that 
they come upon him at every turn. It also re-confirms that he is one 
incredible potion maker and that that is the skill be brought to the 
DEs, and it makes the scene on the Tower that much more poignant. I 
also think, rather than making the UV misdirection, it confirms the 
power of a UV- see below for my thoughts on this.

<snip more of Carol's original snippage>

Pippin:
> Yes, maybe JohnWayne!Snape could have saved Dumbledore. But with
DE's in the castle, Draco and Harry as eyewitnesses, with Rosmerta
already aware that Dumbledore was dangerously ill, Snape couldn't 
have
done it without revealing his true allegiance. And if he did, then 
vow
or no vow, the one 'who I believe has left me forever' would be
*dead*. If the vow didn't kill him, Voldemort would. The vow is
really a beautiful piece of misdirection on JKR's part, to make us
forget that if Snape reveals himself as Dumbledore's man he's going 
to
be dead anyway. <snip>

Celia:
So, in your view (just making sure I understand) Dumbledore fully 
intended to call Snape to help him recover from Snape's own potion 
when they first return to the Tower, but upon realizing that Draco 
and the DEs are attacking, DD instantly shifts into a plan to 
protect Snape's cover, knowing he will die for it. Dumbledore's 
death by AK (or fake AK) over the battlements becomes the only way 
to save Snape and, as Carol has so clearly explained in the past, 
almost everyone else at Hogwart's. Do I have your theory right? 

I would add that this also conveniently allows Snape to fulfill his 
unfortunate UV because he is killing DD with the potion.

Tangential note: If in the UV, Snape has only committed to killing 
DD if Draco appears to have failed, does he break the vow if he 
kills him *before* Draco has failed? Snape's potion would already be 
killing DD by the time Draco has arrived. I know Draco has sort of 
tried with the mead and the necklace, so it is a moot point, but 
interesting to think about


Pippin:
> If we allow any legilimency between Dumbledore and Snape, then
Dumbledore could easily tell Snape what had happened <snip> 
Dumbledore need
only visualize the potion's name in writing for Snape to see it.

Carol responds:
Or an image of the potion itself? BTW, we do have evidence of looks 
of
mutual understanding between *Harry* and DD (GoF), and Harry's 
attempt
to convey a verbal message to Snape via Legilimency in OoP, which may
or may not have worked (its effectiveness is masked by the spoken
message a moment later, which Snape clearly did understand).

Celia:
Based on Snape's response to Harry in OotP when Harry has shouted 
about "Padfoot" and the "place where it is hidden", I tend to think 
Snape did get Harry's mental message in that scene. Snape, as he 
continues to do all the way through Flight of the Prince, teaches 
Harry while scolding him, telling him, "Potter, when I want nonsense 
shouted at me I shall give you a Babbling Beverage." I other words, 
Shut up, Potter, no need to shout, I heard you. Or at least that is 
my interpretation (granted there are others). Therefore I also see 
no impediment to Snape and DD exchanging a number of mental images 
and messages about the potion and what to do next in the short 
moments on the Tower.

Pippin:
> Snape can know there's little chance of saving Dumbledore now. And
he can know that he was in a way the instrument of Dumbledore's 
death.

Celia:
Here's where I see the UV coming into play, rather than being 
lessened. Snape kills DD and fulfills the vow without even meaning 
to, which to me seems like the appropriate result of an Unbreakable 
Vow- it has a will of it's own and get itself fulfilled in a way the 
person taking it cannot necessarily imagine. DD drinking Snape's 
green potion from years past would certainly be a nasty surprise way 
for the UV to fulfill itself.

<snip>

Carol:
But I still can't quite get past DD deliberately drinking the stuff.
He must not have expected to find it there, and he must have thought
that the Horcrux was real. I think he would only have come down to
your reasoning once he recognized the potion and determined that it
was indeed Snape's. (If you're right, that is. I'm still not sure.)

Celia:
I agree with you here Carol, DD and Snape could not have anticipated 
this turn of events. I truly do not think DD knew what was in the 
cave, but put the potion together with info from Snape once he saw 
it.

Pippin:
> So ::takes deep breath:: even if Dumbledore died of the poison,
Snape may have killed Dumbledore, or at least contributed materially
to the means of his death.
>
> If Snape invented the potion and Dumbledore died of it, we get a
whole tragedy of sin coming home to roost without losing the reality
of Snape's attempt to redeem himself.

Carol responds:
It certainly makes Snape's position even more tragic and ironic, his
own work as a DE coming around to haunt him with unendurable remorse.

Celia:
I have always believed that however DDM!, Snape killed DD. I like 
this theory because it adds the twisted element of the UV coming in 
and turning on Snape as well, so that he is responsible for DD's 
death even without taking action.

Carol:
And we get a reason for Snape's return to Dumbledore and for remorse
that precedes Godric's Hollow (something to do with the death of
Regulus?) and for Dumbledore's trust in him. But it doesn't by any
means answer all our questions. How can we link all this to RAB (and
Bellatrix, who claims to have been entrusted with LV's "most
precious--" treasures? Secrets? Whatever she started to say, she
doesn't share it with Snape, nor does she believe that LV would
confide in him as he in in her. And it makes sense for Bellatrix, a
former Black, to be linked with the same Horcrux as RAB, her cousin,
who seems to have stashed the real Horcrux in 12 GP before he had a
chance to attempt to destroy it. (Could Reggie have died a slow death
from Severus's poison? Doesn't seem to fit the few facts we have. I
got the impression (from brother Sirius) that Reggie was AKd by Death
Eaters, and I still think that his was the death that young Snape
witnessed, the one that enabled him to see Thestrals.

Celia:
Just throwing this out there
what if Reggie did drink Snape's green 
potion to steal the locket horcrux, then ran to his potion expert 
friend from school, Snape, to get cured. Seeing his hopeless state, 
Snape himself is the DE who had to kill Regulus? Then Snape gets the 
glory of killing a traitor for LV, it appears that he died from the 
AK/fakeAK Snape uses, and no one ever knows better. Voila, Snape 
sees thestrals, everyone knows Reggie is killed by a DE, and the 
emotional toll on Snape for having to kill his friend drives him to 
the Order, pre-GH. 
Whew, full of holes, this idea is, but somehow, I like it and will 
think on it further


Carol:
<snip> And whose memory is DD reliving? Is
there a way it can be Snape's own?

Celia:
Wish I had HBP with me to think over the lines again as possibly 
Snape's? How is it that I have every book here except that one?

Carol:
Also, I don't think we can dismiss
the UV quite that easily. It's surely more than a red herring, as
indicated by all that sinister imagery of flames and bonds at the
close of "Spinner's End."

Celia:
I agree, and as I said, I think this theory actually strengthens the 
power of the UV. Draco is failing to kill DD throughout the book, 
and finally the vow has had enough and leads DD to a bowl of Snape's 
poison potion. That UV is powerful magic. 

-Celia, saying all this with very little confidence, but really 
intrigued by this entire idea and planning to think more about Snape 
and Regulus tonight.