Lily and Snape WAS Re: Snape as the HBP (Was: CHAPDISC: HBP30, The White Tomb)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165811

Carol earlier:
> > Carol, who just does not get this compuslion to discredit Snape,
especially on the part of DDM!Snapers
> >
> 
> Valky:
> LOL, I sense a vague swipe at PotionsGenius!Lily here. ;)

Carol:
Guilty as charged. But I still don't think that she and Severus would
have worked together, a Gryffindor and a Slytherin (rival Houses) who
didn't even share a common room to study in together, especially after
the "worst memory" incident. And, as I said, it's very likely that
James and Sirius were also in the NEWT Potions class given their
reputation for being good at all subjects and Slughorn's tolerance in
admitting E students into his NEWT classes. It isn't that I don't
think Lily was good at Potions though Slughorn's memory of her is
undoubtedly rose-colored, as McGonagall's is of James (she
conveniently forgets all those detentions for things like
head-swelling hexes). My point is that just because Lily was also good
at Potions doesn't mean that she should be credited with performing
the HBP's research. Those Potions hints are clearly the result of
hands-on research (trying various ways to crush a sopophorous bean,
adding various ingredients to eliminate side-effects, stirring
clockwise and then counterclockwise) the kind of thing that was not
necessarily done in the classroom but more likely out of class, away
from prying eyes. And we know that Adult!Snape works alone. I can't
imagine him conducting potions experiments with a Gryffindor partner
in the Potions classroom after hours, and if he conducted them in his
own room, Lily certainly wasn't there.
> 
Valky:
> If that be the case, I did want to say that it's not even the point
of the theory to discredit Snape as a Potions Master; that would be
pretty impossible anyhow considering that Slughorn recalls Snape as
having been great at Potions, anyhow, so clearly he was. 

Carol:
Exactly. So it makes no sense to me not to credit him with the notes
in his own handwriting in his own book. He seems to be applying the
results of his own long-term research to his teaching, which is why he
casts directions on the board rather than assigning them from the book
and knows exactly what will go wrong at every step.
> 
Valky:
> If we are to take the HBP text and separate it into its useful
Prince-added elements the list wuld look something like this :
> 
> 1. Spells and Incantations (with invention/research notes aside them)
> 2. Theory notes. 
> 3. Practical tips and hints.
> 
> It's clearly safe to say that #1 are all Snapes handiwork; he claims
the spells as his own and demonstrates his familiarity with their
inner workings when healing Draco. No contest.

Carol:
Agreed.

Valky:
> #2 and #3 as far as I can see are more ambiguous elements,
especially #3 and I'll get to why that in a moment. First #2 is
slightly ambiguous as to where the totality comes from;

Carol:
I don't understand this sentence.

Valky:
 my guess is that these notes are likely to have come from various
sources originally. To nail down those sources - 1. We can probably
write off Sluggy, we've seen his classes and he's no help 2. There is
of course Snape's own research efforts, and we can be fairly sure of
those per the Pensieve scene in OOtP, Snape appeared to be quite
diligent in his study and it's not a leap from the pensieve scene to a
heavy study habit, I don't think.

Carol:
Exactly. so where does the ambiguity come in?

Valky:
  Now 3. there is another possible source for this information, and we
have our example of it in Hermione. It's not unlikely that a few of
the notes were taken down by Snape in class when they seemed at all
useful. Now we can say Slughorn is a pretty lacklustre 'teacher', but
he surely knows how to brew a quality potion and he does (quite loudly
"OHO!") recognise a good idea when he sees one. That is to say, in a
class, Snape would recognise something said or offered by any of the
class members that got Slughorn's tick of approval was of some very
real value, and there's a good chance he'd note it, assuming he hadn't
thought of that himself. 
> 
> I think if we break down element #2 it would be fair to say 90% of
it was Snapes own research, with an added contribution from those
around him.  
> 
> And so my point with that is to say - I invariably credit Snape with
as near enough 99% of the elements 1 and 2 in the book. it is only on
element 3 that I think an extra consideration could be taken. 

Carol:
I'd say 100% of element 1 and probably 100% of element 2 though I
agree that if anyone said anything intelligent or original in class,
including Sluggy himself, he'd make at least a mental note of it.
However, 99% for elements 1 and 2 is fine with me.
> 
Valky:
> The practical hints in the book have the most ambiguous source of all; 
> 
> For one in this subject such things need only be seen, in order to
be known.
>  
> additionally there is also a stark difference between these
particular innovations in Snapes notes, and the other innovations in
Snapes notes. Take the spell Levicorpus for instance, when Harry is
looking at the margin with this spell in it he sees that Snape has
made more than one attempt to get it right, crossed out that attempt
and tried again until he got the results he wanted, these innovations
are pedictably revised. OTOH the practical potions hints are never
mentioned as having been revised, not once, at all. They are simply
written. Snape is a logical genius, we know this as canon, so where is
his trail of logic? <snip>

Carol:
There's a world of difference in the creation of spells and Potions
hints. In the spells, he's thinking in writing (as we do when we
respond to a post). With Potions research, you can't do that. You
don't write, Wonder what will happen if I add a mint leaf? You add the
mint leaf and see what happens. Severus is recording the results of
his experiments (and perhaps an occasional observation). There's no
need for a paper trail. As I said earlier in this post, you try
various ways of crushing the sopophorous bean or eliminating the side
effect and record the one that works. He's not keeping a diary of his
experiments, including the failed attempts; he's making marginal notes
that he can use later.

Valky:
> If neither of these are enough for anyone, there is a kicker to this
ambiguity of the Potions hints......
> 
> The Mint Leaf. Do we really believe Snape deliberately added a
delicate and aesthetic touch to a complicated potion purely for its
delicate aesthetic touch? Doesn't that sound more like something a
sweet kind-natured young lady would do? <snip>


Carol responds:
Severus wouldn't need cross-outs with regard to his Potions
experiments, which are hands-on research involving potion ingredients
and a cauldron--for example, crushing the sopophorous bean with the
dull side of the blade or adding a mint leaf. And Snape *dose* have an
appreciation for aesthetics. Have you forgotten his initial speech to
the first-years about "the *beauty* of the softly shimmering fumes,
the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins,
bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses?" (SS Am. ed. 137). He
appreciates subtle effects, including the elimination of undesirable
side effects, which was the purpose of adding the mint leaf. It's
intended to prevent nose-tweaking, not to add a delicate aesthetic touch.

FWIW, I'm not sure that Lily, whom Slughorn remembers as being cheeky
and who called James (deservedly) a "bullying toerag" can be regarded
as "a sweet kind-natured young lady" any more than Ginny can. I can't
see that she'd be any more inclined to add a mint leaf than Severus
would. He was trying to eliminate a side effect, and he would try
various ingredients until he discovered the one that works.

Carol, who thinks that Snape wouldn't react as he does to Harry as a
supposed Potions prodigy if he thought that Harry was taking credit
for Lily's research rather than Snape's own