ChapDisc: HBP30, The White Tomb - What if...???

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165858

bboyminn wrote:
> <snip>
> > Now back to Dumbledore; what if Dumbledore was already dead when
Snape threw the Killing Curse? That would explain the unusual
response. Also, if Hermione and Lupin probe Harry at depth for the
details of what happened on the tower, Harry might let it slip that it
was the Killing Curse that threw Dumbledore off the tower. 
> > 
> > Indeed as Carol points out, that might lead Lupin to conclude the
only way that could happen was if Dumbledore was already dead. I
consider a Killing curse against a dead person as very much the
equivalent of a missed curse with respect to the reaction we will see.

Carol responds:
First, let me point out that I'm only hoping that Lupin will realize
that the AK did not behave normally. I didn't suggest that it did so
because Dumbledore was already dead. The delayed response before the
Freezing Charm on Harry wears off suggests the opposite--that DD
wasn't dead yet when the supposed AK sent him over the ramparts. It's
possible, for example, that Snape's spell, whatever it was (something
nonverbal disguised as an AK or combined with an AK that wasn't
"meant"--"You have to mean them," says Belatrix) sent DD over the
tower wall and then floated him gently down (the rag doll image).

Anyway, all I know is that that AK differs from the norm in more ways
than one and that DDM!Snape had good reason to get the body off the
tower: he had to keep the invisible Harry from rushing out to fight
the Death Eaters. So, yes, I'm counting on Lupin to spot the
anomalies, possibly in conjunction with Mad-Eye, who should know how
an AK usually acts if anyone does, but I didn't say anything about
Dumbledore being already dead. (Not ruling out the possibility, just
noting that it isn't what I said.)
> 
Quick_Silver:
> I actually think this is a really neat idea and could actually work
but I have to say that I feel there's no...set-up...to it. Harry
doesn't notice Snape stalling, or taking long then normal to do the 
deed, and Snape eyes, iirc, aren't described as searching (as if he 
was looking at Dumbledore's life force) but his face is filled with
anger and hatred (again if I remember correctly). It's just that if 
JK wanted to have this why not include a second of hesitation that no
one but Harry could notice? My entire view of Draco is different 
because Harry noticed his wand drop a fraction, why not have Snape 
hesitate for a fraction of second? <snip>

Carol responds:

Harry has his own emotions and preconceptions, and if we want to find
the truth, we need to eliminate his perspective (fear, horror, etc.)
as much as we can. He sometimes sees without knowing what he sees, for
example, with the "horrible" Thestrals, or hears without
understanding, as with Sirius Black's "There will be only one murder
here tonight" (or the various conversations he overhears through
eavesdropping, starting with Quirrell and Snape in SS/PS). Certainly,
if DD and Snape exchange a silent message, Harry isn't going to see
it. He sees Snape looking at DD but doesn't register the possible
significance, just as he sees Snape's eyes sweep the room but doesn't
register that Snape must have seen the two brooms and be aware of his
presence.

Steve quoted a large part of the scene, but he left out the part that,
IMO, answers your question. Snape *does* hesitate. The "lumpy" Death
Eater, Amycus (Carrow?) tells Snape that it seems Draco can't do it
(trigger UV, provision 3) and at the same time, Dumbledore whispers
Snape's first name, and Snape meets Dumbledore's eyes. *At that point*
his expression changes--surely the result of whatever he sees in DD's
eyes--and yet he still doesn't raise his wand until DD says "Severus,
please." Then and only then does Snape speak the spell and send out a
"jet of green light" (not a "blinding flash") that hits DD in the
chest and sends him over the ramparts.

Here's the canon just to confirm the accuracy of what I'm saying:

"'We've got a problem, Snape,' said the lumpy Amycus, whose eyes and
wand were fixed alike upon Dumbledore, "the boy doesn't seem able--'

"But somebody else had spoken Snape's name, quite softly.

"'Severus . . . .'

<snip Harry's reaction> "For the first time, Dumbledore was pleading.

"Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy out of the
way. <snip DEs' reaction>

"*Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore,* and there was revulsion and
hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.

"'Severus, please. . . .'

"*Snape raised his wand* and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.

"'*Avada Kedavra!*"

"A jet of green light shot from Snape's wand and hit Dumbledore
squarely in the chest. <snip Harry's reaction> Dumbledore was blasted
into the air. For a split second, he seemed to hang suspended beneath
the shining skull, and then he fell slowly backward, like a great rag
doll, over the battlements and out of sight" (HBP Am. ed. 596).

I don't see any room here for Dumbledore to die before Snape hits him
with the spell, but there's somehow time for him to close his eyes
before he dies, and Snape does hesitate before killing him, pushing
his luck as far as the UV is concerned, as if he'd rather die from it
than kill Dumbledore. *If* the UV is about to kill him for failing to
complete the vow and DD wants him alive (to save himself and Draco and
Harry and do whatever else DD wants him to do), DD's urgency, indeed
desperation, is understandable.

No doubt time is slowed down from Harry's perspective, and yet I don't
think the part about floating like a rag doll is his perspective. I'm
almost certain that Snape slowed his fall. There's no indication of
broken bones, only the trickle of blood that Pippin finds so
significant, the locket jarred open, and the glasses slightly askew.

Carol, who really wants someone to put Harry's memory of DD's death
into a Pensieve and figure out what's really going on