[HPforGrownups] Re: On being Lucky (was On lying and cheating)/ Snape and his importance.

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165920

 Alla:
>
> As I said I have no argument at all to Snape's actions being very
> important to the story, **at all**. Their dynamic are important, but
> to me it does not follow that Snape's actions are more important than
> Harry's, that's all.
>
> Besides, I still think that it is possible that Snape is a plot
> device for Harry to get to certain point of his development, you know?
>
> Why would you regret making that comparison? Because I attempted to
> chalenge it? Blinks.

Magpie:
No, I get that--and I agree. Because when we talk about Harry's 
importance--I mean, to the Voldemort plot specifically--it's leading towards 
the future. Like, Harry let Peter go and that's surely going to be 
important, but that bomb hasn't detonated yet. Snape's story is very much 
about setting up Harry's thing that he's going to do. And that's all I mean 
about Snape's actions being more effective in that story, because Harry 
hasn't yet had his battle with Voldemort. It's the nature of the series that 
it keeps getting put off until DH where Harry must destroy all the Horcruxes 
and Voldemort. Up until then he has to be flying by the seat of his 
pants--acquiting himself well when he's on the spot, but not going out and 
doing things that set things in motion, because he's reacting. (Not that he 
never does that--he decides to go to the MoM, for instance in OotP, etc.)


> Magpie:
> Snape isn't involved in the interactions between
>> the students, or the R/Hr romance, or Harry's romances with Cho or
>> Ginny, or the saving of Buckbeak etc. I'm just saying that when it
>> comes to the Voldemort/Harry story, Snape's pretty important and
> was
>> before Harry arrived at Hogwarts. At the risk of starting the whole
>> thing up again, Harry's getting people to follow him with the DA
>> really isn't affecting things on the level I'm saying Snape's
>> actions have, even if it's obviously important in its own way.
>> Snape's actions have at times set up the story of which *Harry* is
>> the protagonist. Snape is one hard-working *antagonist* who acts as
>> an opposing force to Harry and causes him to generate action back
>
> Alla:
>
> We don't know, whether Harry getting people to follow him would
> affect the story more than Snape's actions had?
>
> After all, Sirius and Lupin listening to Harry plea to free Peter
> already arguably affected the story a lot and probably more than any
> of Snape's actions did. IMO of course.\

Magpie:
Yes, but my point is they haven't been important *yet*. Like the analogy 
above about the bomb not yet detonating. Snape's from the past generation. 
We're now living more with the consequences of the mistakes of that 
generation. Harry's generation hasn't been idle or anything, but they've 
just gotten to the point where presumably the people they are (as opposed to 
who the past generation was) will make history and shape the world their 
children will live in.

That's why it makes sense to me that Snape's story has so far affected the 
world more, while Harry and other kids from his class must take the lead in 
this battle against Voldemort. That's why Snape can't save everyone in the 
end. He's been in the role of protector (even if his motives aren't really 
to protect Harry, as you said) and now he's got to step aside and let Harry 
do his thing. No coincidence that this is at the same time that Harry plans 
to stop being reactive and protecting himself for "someday", go out in the 
world and find Voldemort.

Alla:>
> And if at the end Harry would make all four houses stand together, I
> would think it would matter much more than any of Snape's actions so
> far.

Magpie:
Yes, it would--and that's why, imo, we're reading the story of *this* 
generation and not Snape's. But Harry hasn't done that yet. He's been 
dealing with the world left to him by Snape's generation. They didn't unite 
the houses, didn't get over important problems. Their "defeat" of Voldemort 
was just a postponement. Harry appears in the middle of the story. In the 
end it's his choices that will defeat Voldemort because he's the hero.

So when I say that Snape's actions have had more effect on the Voldemort 
storyline the "have had" is important. Harry's important actions--destroying 
the Horcruxes, inspiring some turnaround with Peter, uniting the 
Houses--haven't happened yet, even if they no doubt will be the things that 
actually destroy Voldemort (which Snape certainly didn't do). I'm not 
comparing Snape's actions to anything Harry might do or effects Harry might 
have when the series is over.

Actually, I think if you look at all three kids who have close, personal 
ties to the first war with Voldemort you'll find the same thing. Neville has 
been living with the effects of what other people have done. But now he's 
expressed blatant interest in having an effect in his own right. I think 
Neville will have a part in the actual defeat of Voldemort and so surpass 
his parents in that respect. But it's a fight he's inherited, and he had to 
develop before he could take it on effectively himself. He did pretty well 
against Bellatrix in OotP, but it's not surprising when it's talked about in 
fandom it's almost assumed to be a battle that isn't over yet, as if it 
instinctively *feels* like it's a prelude to Neville asserting himself on 
events in ways he hasn't yet.

-m