Snape, Voldemort and the DADA position (very long) (Not quite so Long reply)

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 165925

<SNIP> 
> Goddlefrood earlier:
> I postulate that Dumbledore figured out that he could not
> keep a DADA teacher for more than a year within a short time 
> of his interview with LV. Why then would Dumbledore give the 
> job to a useful man like Snape? Clearly Snape, despite his faults, 
> is a competent and able teacher and is particularly gifted at 
> Potions as indicated by his identity as the Half-Blood Prince. 

<Further snippage>

> It is also worthy of note that Dumbledore did not believe 
> Voldemort was finished and he would, therefore, want to maintain 
> one of his most useful spies in case LV returned as we know he 
> subsequently did.
 
> Carol responded (in part):

> I agree with you here. So long as Voldemort has not returned, 
> that is, up until the end of GoF, Dumbledore would undoubtedly 
> want Snape on hand in his other area of expertise, Potions, and 
> to watch over Harry and keep contact with Death Eaters, such as 
> Lucius Malfoy. 

Goddlefrood now:

The good Professor continued in his position as Potions Master in
year 5 also, don't forget. Even though the Ministry did not 
acknowledge LV's return, Snape knew of it, from his Dark Mark and 
he met him, two hours or so after the grevayard scene, so why, 
pray, did he not leave at that point, or at the latest at the end 
of year 5? Didn't serve Voldemort's purpose very much now really 
did it? Can we perhaps be enlightened :) on the usefulness of Snape
remaining at Hogwarts.

I suggest that there was no purpose being served by having Snape 
remaining at Hogwarts for year 5, other than perhaps a continued 
wish to somehow back up the story of the Ministry that LV had not 
returned (and I really can't see how that would work).

If Snape were to be useful to Dumbeldroe, as suggested by Carol in
a bit I snipped (sorry about that), then surely he would have been
*more* useful away from Hogwarts than at it. He would have been 
able to spy more effectually, I propose, by getting in more with
Voldemort and his plans over the course of OotP, which, other than
the Prophecy issue, we are not so far privy to.

Surely it is no great leap to infer that LV was doing other things 
apart from tracing down ways to get the Prophecy record.

Carol went on:

> Fake Veritaserum in OoP.

Goddlefrood:

The who or the what or the where now? (It was mentioned, but not 
seen) and yes I know the one about Barty Crouch Jnr. being given 
it
 
> Carol, a little later on:
> I agree with you that the DADA position is indeed cursed and 
> that DD doesn't want to give it to Snape until he has no other 
> choice (despite Snape's qualifications and any desire he may or 
> may not have for a job that he must know is jinxed or cursed). 

Goddlefrood:

It's not me who says it, Dumbledore does, and I rarely doubt him.
With all due respect, the point of the post responded to by Carol
was that Snape himself *did not* want the DADA job. Oh, and almost
certainly in the WWW there was a wizard or witch somewhere whom DD 
could have persuaded to take the DADA job somehow, he has that 
effect on people. Additionally, if he had no other choice I find 
it unlikely that the Ministry would have been unable to parachute
someone in (although not a la Umbridge).

Carol again: 
<SNIP> - Summary of years 1 to 4

> So far, so good. We can see why Snape reacted to them as he did, 
> and we can see why DD would hire these people rather than Snape, 
> whether Snape wants the position or not, for a position that DD 
> knows to be cursed or jinxed. But why allow the MoM to bring in 
> Umbridge, who is clearly a spy for Fudge and who intends (as DD 
> must know from the booklist) to teach a useless theory-based DADA 
> course? DD knows that Snape is much more qualified to teach the 
> course than Umbridge is. Why not give it to him instead of her? 
> The answer can only be that he wants Snape to remain with him at 
> Hogwarts. <Pretty big snip>

Goddlefrood:

I see what you're saying, but refer you to my earlier herein  
(briefly - what purpose does it serve?). It was brought up in the 
earlier discussion that the Ministry would have forced Umbridge on 
DD even if he had wanted to appoint Snape at that point. The 
argument was a good one, in many ways a better one than put 
forward in the post to which this responds. However, personally I 
don't see it. DD is the most powerful wizard of his age (I like 
that he's the only wizard of his age - that we've met anyway) and 
if he wanted something he would not have let the Ministry override 
him.

His purpose (in year 5) to make the Ministry announce to the WWW 
that LV has returned is served in no way that is clear to me by 
accepting Dolores as the DADA teacher and not appointing Severus.

Happy to be enlightened :)

> Carol

> I agree that Snape seems not to know, when he talks about OWLs 
> in OoP, that he won't be back as Potions master next year, or 
> that DD will want him as DADA teacher instead, but the battle at 
> the MoM has not yet occurred, and Voldemort has not yet assigned 
> Draco to kill DD. By the end of OoP, Dumbledore surely knows that 
> it's time to hire Snape as DADA teacher, and the encounter with 
> the ring Horcrux clinches the matter.> Goddlefrood:

<SNIP> -previous quoted material

> You're overlooking a wealth of other information about Snape 
> that comes from GoF, notably that he "returned to our side" 
> (what does hat mean, anyway?) and began spying for Dumboedore 
> "at great personal risk" before Voldemort was vaporized.
<SNIP>

Goddlefrood:

Not at all, I was arguing a case for Snape not wanting the DADA 
job at all, so why would this and some of the other material be 
relevant exactly?

I can certainly help you on the question above though. It is stated
quite clearly that no one leaves the Death Eaters. You're either in
or you're dead, basically, as Sirius told us in OotP. "It's a 
lifetime of service, or death" or words to that effect.

Had Voldemort known Severus was working against LV back in the day 
could you see him lasting long? At that point, although I have to 
concede, we don't really know, LV appears to have been more 
powerful than he is in his current incarnation. Severus may be 
many things, but he's no fool. He would have had to give LV the 
very firm impression that he (Severus) was still on LV's side if 
he really had become DDMSnape.

<Big SNIP>

> Carol: 

> (I'm by no means denying, BTW, that he loves Potions and is an 
> expert in the subject. But he's an expert in DADA as well, as we 
> see again with his detailed answers on the DADA OWL in "Snape's 
> Worst Memory" and his easy, nonverbal deflection of Harry's 
> curses in "Flight of the Prince.")

Goddlefrood:

Apart from the non-verbal spell lesson, the Flight of the Prince 
(which shows Snape is an excellent duellist) and not forgetting 
his knowlegde of hexes and curses as an 11 year old newly arrived 
at Hogwarts there is not a great wealth of material to support the 
assertion that Snape is any more expert in DADA than Harry, for 
example. If Harry can get the hang of non-verbal spells, and he's 
done several without knowing, other than Levicorpus, then I see no 
reason to not say, as I now will, that Harry would be better than 
Severus. He's 16, Severus is 37 (or so) so (as Americans might say) 
go figure.

<SNIP> - More material and quotes, one little bit to add
> Carol later:
> <SNIP> preliminary
> (though he may be consulting with DD about it in private and
> apparently tries to find out whether Harry is the Heir of 
> Slytherin by having Draco cast Serpensortia)

Goddlefrood:

My impression of that scene was that Snape wanted to show Harry 
up in front of the school. I believe by then he had already 
figured out that Harry was a Parselmouth. It is nothing more nor 
less than petty one-upmanship on Severus's part IMHO. It appears 
(if one cares to read through Carol's) that she agrees with me on 
this point, a little later in material I have snipped for the 
purpose of this reply.

I'm quite tired now, it's late and I appreciate there was a wealth 
of more more material in Carol's well put together post. My view 
remains unchanged *at this point*. Further argument specifically 
on the matter of whether Snape actually did want the job would be 
welcome.

Goddlefrood who once more puts forward for your consideration 
adopting LANOSnape (looking after number one)