Why DD did not ask Snape to kill him. (extremely long)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 165938

> > Dana before:
> > Of course it is besides the fact that the majority of fans
seem to hold this view while JKR specifically states it is not
easily guessable what will happen in book 7 or she will be
extremely annoyed.

> Ceridwen:
> While the interviews, and answered questions at JKR's site,
are useful and considered canon-compatible if not actually canon
for the purposes of this list, I tend to take what JKR says with
a grain of salt. In this case, what stops me from believing her unequivocally, is that this is a bookseries for children and
"young adults" - teens -  who may not have read as extensively
as the adults on this and other lists. For the target audience,
any scenario will be harder to guess than it would be for adults.


Dana now:

Interesting because there are many adults writing essays all over
the net and still JKR has not seen anything that was spot on, just
a few that skimmed it very closely.

Are you suggesting that JKR only reads the essays written by
children and young teens? Also is this not a little bit
condescending towards the very young that they cannot come up
with a decent theory?

Personally I think you could be very mistaken in the power the
young have to understand things much better than adults do because they are far less likely to bend over backwards to fit a theory
into their own perspective because the young mind is not clouded
with the so-called life experience adults always think they have.

The main problem I see with adults is that they are mostly set in
the knowledge they think they possess and thus less flexible to
look at things from a different perspective than their own. Many adults loose their imagination of what it is like to be young and
this doesn't mean they understand better what a children's book
tells the reader, but understand less because they dwell too long
on the ethics of a scene instead of what the scene can actually
tell about that moment in time. JMHO

'Some fans have come very close to guessing the ending of Book 7,
but the one she has planned isn't "very obvious."'
[Read the whole quote from BBC Radio4, 2005]

'Loves fan-theories. People have been very close to figuring out things and *some* people have even figured out part of Book 7.'
[Read the whole quote from ITV, 2005]

'Jo gets "cold shivers when *someone* guesses at something that's very close" but enough ideas are "off the wall" that she
doesn't really worry; the ending is "clearly not that obvious."'
[Read the whole quote from BBC-Radio4, 2005]

(All these are available in full at www.accio-quote.org)

Of course you are right that JKR directions in interviews should
not be taken one way or the other because you do not know what
part of the story she is referring to and it could be anything
for the actual ending of the story to Snape's true loyalties.


> > Dana before:
> > From a logical standpoint, Snape's reaction in the forest
makes no sense if DD indeed asked him to kill him. Why? Because
Snape by that time already believed LV expected him to do it and
he committed himself to an UV to do it if Draco failed.

> Ceridwen:
> There has been some discussion on this list about that statement
of Snape's in Spinner's End. To some, it is a straightforward statement made by one DE to another. To some, it is misdirection
by a spy to members of the group he is spying upon. And to some,
he didn't mean LV here, but DD. No name is ever mentioned.


Dana now:

Interesting because what use will it be to Snape to misdirect
Bella about LV? He might gloat a little that he is in the know
more than she is but misdirecting another DE can be a very
dangerous business, especially one that is competing for the Dark Lord's favor. Better not mess with information that can be checked with LV himself.

Bella is not stupid, she even made sure Draco did not let Snape
help him and wipe his own slate clean. So far it doesn't seem that Snape's misdirection is working very well now is it. Apparently
Bella perceived Snape's words exactly as many readers do as
being misdirection, so it missed the point entirely and I do not believe Snape is that dumb, but who knows?

Let's look at the scene itself and see if Snape means anything
else than LV wanting him to do it in the end.

Pg 32 UK ed. paperback:

The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it, `Narcissa
continued, her eyes closed. He wishes none to know of the plan.
It is very secret. But –`

`If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak,' said Snape at
once. `The Dark Lord's word is law.'

...

`It so happens that I know of the plan,' he said in a low voice.
`I am one of the few the *Dark Lord* has told. 'Nevertheless,
had I not been in on the secret, Narcissa, you would have been
guilty of great treachery to the *Dark Lord*.'

...

But what help do you require Narcissa? If you are imagining I can
persuade the *Dark Lord* to change his mind, I am afraid there is
no hope, none at all.'

...

My son.. My only son
'

...

If Draco succeeds, said Snape, still looking away from her, `he
will be honoured above all others.'
'But he won't succeed! Sobbed Narcissa. `How can he, when the Dark
Lord himself-?'

...

You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. *He* would reward you
beyond all of *us* -`

"He intends me to do it in the end, I *think*. But he is
determined that Draco should try it first. You see, in the
unlikely event that Draco succeeds, I shall be able to remain at Hogwarts a little longer, fulfilling my useful role as spy.'
'In other words, it doesn't matter to him if Draco is killed!'
'The Dark Lord is very angry,'

End quote canon. [Emphasis throughout mine].

Well and from here we go straight to the vow.

So we are to assume while the conversation is about what the Dark
Lord wants, Snape is suddenly referring to what Dumbledore wants?
And he isn't even sure? And Snape would take the risk going
against LV's orders and kill Dumbledore when he just referred
twice to the fact that LV's orders are law and he is not stupid enough to even try and persuade LV to change his mind about using Draco for the task?

But Snape then decides to agree to do it in a vow because it would
be what Dumbledore wants him to do? So what is Snape going to say
to LV that he did it on Dumbledore's orders?

And this would not raise questions as to why DD would want Snape
to do this. I think if there is a plan between DD and Snape to
park Snape permanently in LV's camp then he better be sure it is
precisely what LV is expecting of him because LV is not going to allow a DE to run his own show on his turf, you can be sure of
that.

For me it is a little bit of a stretch to think Snape would take
all these actions on the basis of a lot of assumption on what
either DD or LV will want him to do. Especially with the vow in
place because if LV finds out Snape was helping Narcissa to go against his plan he will not forgive Snape not even if it
resulted in DD's death.

If DD is not planning to die, and will never ask this of Snape,
then he has a little problem on his hands there as well.  But this then goes against what all Snape fans say that the hate on Snape's face is because he has to do something he really doesn't want to
do. If you are correct and Snape did what he did in Spinner's End because it is what he thinks DD wants him to do then again the argument in the forest can be no proof DD is asking this of Snape because Snape would not go against what he already suspected DD wanted from him. I still fail to see the Snape killed DD on DD's orders scenario working here.


> > Dana before:
> > Because all of them (DD/LV/UV) give him the same option. Do it
or die. DD's orders are totally irrelevant to the outcome under
these circumstances, unless I am to believe that Snape had rather died and had planned to do so. <SNIP>

> Ceridwen:
> Another bone of contention between DDM!Snapers and ESE!Snapers.
You already understand the ESE!Snapers' side. Some DDM!Snapers do believe that Snape would rather have died than kill Dumbledore,
but the curse on the DADA position manipulated events to make sure
he had to do it in the end. The reason for wanting to die varies,
I think, from one proponent to another. Snape wants to be
recognized as a hero and will go out in a blaze of glory; Snape is tired of having to walk the tightrope between DD and LV - it's so nervewracking that he would rather let something kill him at his
own discretion than wait for the sudden surprise of LV, for
instance, doing it, with some torture for the salad course. There
are imagined reasons that fall between the two. And of course, in
a series for children and teens, suicide wouldn't be suggested.


Dana now:

I am not an ESE!Snaper because they believe he was evil from the
start and I do not. I believe Snape is not an LV man either and I
do not even believe he is out for his own self anymore or at least not as part of grabbing the bone when the other two top dogs are fighting for it. I believe Snape is driven by his feelings of hate that are raging inside him and he cannot control. I believe he is looking for acceptance so desperately that he lets himself be
driven by it and yes at this moment I believe he's disappointed
in DD for not choosing him over the, in his mind, not special at
all, Harry, which  has driven him to the other side where at this moment LV is giving him the acceptance he is graving so badly.

Wanting to be a hero has a deeper ground than just wanting to have power because wanting to be admired, being accepted, are feelings
that can replace love. That is why LV himself is not looking for admiration he demands loyalty in his quest for power and disposes
of those that are not useful to this quest. I do not think he
minds if his followers hate him in the meantime. One can argue
Snape is the same with his students and, yes, he is, but the
difference is that he only expects respect out of them to gain
respect of others that do mean something to him even if he does
not show it.

The way he can control his class will invoke respect from other
teachers and this is what Snape wants and he will use all means on
his students to get it.

I do not believe Snape would rather have died and his wanting to
be a hero has nothing to do with going out with a blaze. He keeps
everybody reminded of the fact he could have died at Lupin's hand
and even wants to have Sirius soul sucked for having a hand in it.
He also keeps reminding everybody that he is risking his butt at
great *personal* risk, that is not a man who has a death wish but
one that wants to be admired for his skills to stay alive while others parish. He is too self-centered to die on behalf of someone else. He doesn't even want to risk his cover for Harry because it would mean LV would turn on him; and all this while he would certainly have been the hero for DD if he had done so.

Snape is not tired of walking the tightrope between LV and DD
because he tells as much in Spinner's End that if Draco succeeds
he will remain at Hogwarts to fulfill his spying duties. Also if
he really was DD's man then choosing LV's side to end the spying
game if he doesn't want it anymore is a poor way of repaying DD's trust, plan or no plan, because like I said before he is running
this show on his own accord because he doesn't even know what the
two overlords really want. Well if he is so noble he could have helped Harry and denounced LV, his death wish will be fulfilled sooner or later and at least it will be known to all on the good
side that he did it to defeat LV.

> Ceridwen:
> Another possibility brought up by various posters is that Snape
believed that he could get around the wording of the UV. Looking
out for Draco's safety is something Snape, as Draco's Head of
House, would do anyway. That he is also an old friend of Draco's father would strengthen this sense of obligation, so there was no harm done in taking that part of the UV. Just because Narcissa
means something more sinister doesn't mean that Snape is bound to
go by her interpretation of keeping Draco safe. Keeping him safe could just as easily mean that he dissuades Draco from doing the deed. Draco rejecting the task to kill Dumbledore would actually
be a safe thing for him to do, just as an example. So, getting
around that provision would be as easy a having a different interpretation of keeping Draco safe.


Dana now:

Narcissa already asked Snape to do it for Draco so either Snape
is really ignorant or a complete idiot to not expect Narcissa including this in the vow.

Quote: 'You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. *He* would
reward you beyond all of *us* -` page 39 UK ed [Emphasis mine]

Snape would never do this for Draco if he had not expected he
would be ordered to do it in the end. Because if LV does not want Snape to do it he might get killed for overstepping LV's orders. I
do not believe Snape's friendship with Lucius goes that deep.

The problem with the wording of the vow is that it could mean
that Snape is now forever bound to do all Draco's tasks ordered
by LV. The Vow never mentions the task itself only that Snape will
do that what Draco is ordered to do in case if he fails.

Snape knows too much about magic to not know what a UV means and
its consequences. On the one side Snape fans are protesting the
fact that the scribbles in the books could be no-one other than Snape's because the man is a genius but they expect him to not understand a UV regardless of how it is worded? Either the man
is a genius and he knows perfectly well what he is getting into
or he is really an ignorant idiot.

He would not keep Draco safe by persuading him to not do the task
he is ordered by LV because LV said he would kill him and his
family and Snape said to Narcissa that he could not persuade LV
to chang his mind so it would not help Draco at all if Snape did this, with or without the vow. It would even bring danger to
Snape because Draco could, as an attempt to sav himself, tell
LV he was ordered by Snape not to do it (which would not help
Draco at all of course but still). So the only way this would
have worked is if Draco would have taken DD's offer but this
would require an alive DD not a dead one.

Snape is even stupider for taking the vow because at this time
no one had ordered him to do anything. It is only Narcissa
who asks this of him and if Snape is persuaded by the endless
glory he will receive from all of them as she so elegantly puts
it then it is safe to assume taking the vow had nothing to do
with orders from DD.

The only thing I can think of as to why Snape takes the vow is because he believes he can control the circumstances under which
he will have to complete it. Draco's stubbornness to not include Snape in his bidding might have caused Snape some unforeseen
problems because now he is at Draco's mercy under which
circumstances he will be forced to act out the UV. (Maybe this
was the DADA curse at work who knows). Snape might have thought
that he would get an opportunity to strike without it being known
to anyone that it was him who preformed it so he could remain on
both sides of the fence.


> > Dana before:
> > Okay the second argument of many Snape fans is that Snape is doing this on DD's order to save Draco from becoming a murderer.
This necessitates the question; DD's death is serving Draco how?

> Ceridwen:
> Dumbledore's death comes in the same book where Slughorn tells young Tom Riddle that murder is an unnatural act, that it is the
worst thing in the world to do, that it tears the soul. This is
such a horrible outcome on the overall level, that Dumbledore and Snape want to shield Draco from splitting his soul. So, while *Dumbledore's death* doesn't serve Draco for many of the resons
you state, having *Draco innocent of murder* serves Draco by
leaving his soul unsplit.

I think you have outlined Draco's current position in the WW very
well, otherwise. He is definitely a fugitive, and guilty of a lot
of things.

Most DDM!Snape arguments come from the view that Dumbledore and
Snape wanted to save Draco from the spiritual catastrophe of
tearing his soul, not from the logical outcome of his own decision
to act for LV, or for his subsequent actions.


Dana Now:

Yes, but this will only work as long as LV will not order Draco
to kill anyone else. I do not believe DD would plan something so
superficial that it will have no effect in the long run.

Especially not if he has to pay the ultimate price for it. He
would make sure that his death would help Draco for a very long
time, not just until he faces LV yet again. Otherwise he would be
more useful to the boy alive and Draco is not DD's only responsibility, so I can't believe he would throw away his life
if the sacrifice can be overturned in a heartbeat.

So you can ask the question is Draco's soul really saved by this action just because he did not split it by murdering DD? How nice
of DD to not want Draco to split his soul on him, but he can on
anyone else, if he likes, or at least Draco will be able to die
with one soul instead of a split one because he is surely not
there to prevent this from happening either way. And it makes no sense to save Draco's life so he can in the end die with his soul intact.

Sure, one could argue that Draco proved he was not capable of
murder, and I believe this is indeed so, but this does not take
the risk away of LV ordering him to do it again because he has
not proved himself to him. Only if Draco is really lucky would
LV be too busy with other things now DD is gone to concern
himself with Draco, but this is not something DD could know for
sure. Draco has nowhere to go than back to LV because he is, and remains, a wanted young man and Snape cannot hide him because
there are too many witnesses that Draco lived to tell the tale.


> > Dana before:
> > Maybe Draco will be given a second chance (because LV is in
such a good mood now DD is gone), and LV will find someone else
for him to kill. Let see if Snape is still bound to the UV this
time and do it for Draco again and again and again


> Ceridwen:
> I think the UV's provision that Snape do the deed if it seems
that Draco is unable, was specific to the Dumbledore
assassination. The other two provisions of the UV may or may not still be in effect. There has been some discussion about the UV,
its limits, and its effects on Snape.

There is quite a bit of disagreement as well as some areas where
most posters agree.

Yes, some have suggested that Draco will be cut some slack
because the deed was actually done, and that was what LV wanted. Whether it is because this puts him in a good mood, or because
it serves his overall mission, we just don't know. We don't know
that he will let Draco off the hook. We do know that by the time
of Dumbledore's funeral, the bodies of Draco, Narcissa and/or
Snape have not surfaced to show that LV was displeased.


Dana now:

The vow asks of Snape to do the task LV ordered Draco should he
fail, and although this is indeed at that moment killing DD, it
does not specifically state the task itself. Meaning one has to wonder if the UV would again be active if LV orders Draco to do something new. I do not specifically believe JKR meant for it to
be able to be interpreted this way, but the way it was worded
could very well mean precisely that.

I am not going to argue about what a UV can or can't do but I
do not believe that JKR meant anything other than for it to mean
the most serious magical bond one can commit to. Why have it in
the first place if it means nothing serious will happen to you if
you disregard it? If it can be overlooked that easily why would
Bella be so surprised Snape would take it after she accuses him
of always saving his own skin and hiding behind his orders.

That we have not seen any of their bodies tells us nothing about
their current health status. We have been told of many of the
Order who disappeared without a trace. Yes, they could all be
hiding but some are gone for more than 20 years and did not even resurface after LV was presumed dead. I am not saying I believe
they are dead or anything because I do not believe they are, but
we also do not know if LV was pleased enough to not Crucio Draco
just for the fun of it.


> > Dana before:
> > By the way, isn't it interesting that in the US version DD suggests something entirely different? Doesn't this suggest that
if Snape and  DD arranged this, then saving Draco was never part
of it, why else suggest something different to the boy if all has
been arranged in the first place?

> Ceridwen:
> Yes, it's very interesting that the only place where the "can't kill you if you're already dead" line shows up is in the US
hardcover edition. There has been a lot of discussion about this point alone, let alone why it was introduced to Draco in the
first place. It isn't necessarily "entirely different", but it is
an odd thing that this part of the discussion was in the US
hardcover edition and in no other.

And, there is the problem of Draco not wanting to tell Snape
what he's doing through HBP. He accuses Snape of trying to "steal
his glory". He keeps his activities secret, even from his closest friends at school, Crabbe and Goyle. Since he was being uncooperative, there was no chance to make the offer until DD
made it on the Tower. There may never have been a chance to make
the offer, since Draco was trying alternative methods of killing
DD - the necklace and the poisoned mead - and may not have been available for a talk like the one we eventually did see.

Proponents of the Dumbledore Stages It All theory suggest that
DD's plan tried to cover every eventuality. I imagine that the
answer from that theory's viewpoint would be that not having the opportunity to broach the subject with Draco would be part of
their contingency plans.


Dana now:

Yes, it's entirely different because this would mean that DD is
ready to sacrifice Snape for Draco's safety if DD indeed knows
about the UV. This would go against the idea that DD thinks Snape
is more important alive because he will be more use to Harry alive than dead.

Would DD really sacrifice Harry's chances to defeat LV if Snape
is really the key player in this, for Draco's safety? Doesn't this raise too much conflicts of interest to be believable? He can't
have it both ways, if he knows about the UV and he will not have
Snape kill him to keep his cover because the offer could not be
taken care of if he died and Snape can't do it.

I am sorry I do not believe there was no opportunity to offer this
to Draco sooner. If both DD and Snape knew about the plan all
along, they could have offered it as soon as the school year
started, just because Draco is not telling *how* he will execute
the plan doesn't make the *intention* of the plan less clear.

Also Snape is not trying to persuade Draco to not kill DD and I
believe DD let it go on because he still hoped he could get
Snape back into his camp and if he succeeded he would kill two
birds with one stone. I personally do not believe DD knew the
UV included for Snape to finish the job in case Draco failed. He
would not have placed his well being in Snape's hands by
drinking the potion if he had known (or it is something I have a
hard time believing). When they first arrive back at Hogsmeade DD orders Harry to get Snape and this was before Madam Rosmerta
pointed out the Dark Mark above the castle. No, I am not
suggesting Snape would have killed him right then and there
because Snape had no reason yet to kill DD.

It would be a real leap of faith to assume that DD would allow
himself to get caught with his pants down in a situation like
that with a bunch of uncontrollable DEs loose in the castle.
Didn't Harry accuse him of such before they left? This does not
just concerns Draco or Harry's safety. And for this so called
plan to work DD doesn't have to be weakened down, he could have
let Draco overpower him all the same and make sure he could
control the situation if there was a need for it.

I just can't see the logic of having DD die of the potion and
risk the safety of the entire school body in the process to have Snape save everybody in the ultimate sacrifice. Personally I
cannot see DD staging everything in such a way that it would
leave too many things open to chance. It doesn't fit with DD
putting the safety of the students above all.

To me it makes no sense to first let Harry believe Snape could
help DD then to later have him kill him in front of him.
Personally if this was a set up of DD I believe DD would not
have allowed Harry to witness Snape killing him because it was
this that makes the Snape / Harry conflict personal and thus
Snape's help inaccessible to Harry. I am not sure why people
think this will be for Harry's benefit. So Harry can overcome
his feeling of hate, is that the ultimate lesson Snape is going
to teach Harry? He probably will indeed but not because DD orchestrated it to be so.

Don't you think Snape's knowledge and expertise to counter the dangers the Horcrux hunting involves would be far more help to
Harry than having Snape feed information to Harry incognito? I
will not be surprised if Snape does not even know where they are
and I do not believe that with the experience LV already has with
the diary that he will let anyone of his trusted followers in on
his secret, not even Snape. Of course we have to wait and see.


> > Dana:
> > Oh, but there is more of course, because Snape fans will say
DD asked this of Snape because Snape is more important to Harry
alive. How?

<SNIP>

Ceridwen:
First, some have suggested that DD did tell someone in the Order
about the plan so Snape's ability as a spy would not be hindered.
This person would be his contact, and would pass information along
without revealing the source. Not every Order member was shown
reacting to Snape's AK of DD. So there could be a contact person
in the Order who was not in the hospital wing when the news was
announced.

A second suggestion has made use of the Patronuses as a
communication method unique to the Order. This draws in the
Tonks / Remus storyline. Tonks's Patronus changed shapes because
of emotional upheaval. If Snape is DDM and is emotionally
overwrought because of what he did on the Tower, his Patronus
might change so that it is unrecognizable to other Order members
as his own. It would still be received with trust, because communicating with Patronus is something that only the Order
does. Dumbledore taught them this method, and it is unique to
their group. So an unknown Patronus used in this way would be accepted because the person sending it must have been instructed
by Dumbledore on this use.

A third suggestion is that someone in the Order or close to Harry will figure out that something isn't right about the AK on the Tower,and will do some digging and put things together to arrive
at the conclusion of DDM!Snape. The two most likely candidates suggested are Hermione and Remus.

A fourth is what you suggest further down: that no one will know,
but in the end, Snape will prove himself to Harry's satisfaction
in a dramatic way.

In most of these scenarios, Snape is helping behind the scenes -
fomenting dissention in DE ranks; finding and at least informing
Harry anonymously about the location of undiscovered Horcruxes;
biding his time at LV's hand, soaking up information, and
constructing a plan that will be useful in what we all tend to
think of as the Final Battle.


Dana now:

If this is true then this comment of JKR makes no sense

JK won't answer if Snape is evil or not because it will have
such a huge impact on what will happen when Harry and Snape meet
again: "I love the theories."
[Read the whole quote from the Leaky Cauldron, 2005]

"Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-
Voldemort."
[Read the whole quote from the Leaky Cauldron, 2005]
If Harry can be convinced by an order member that Snape is still
working for the Order than there will be no huge impact when
they meet again.

Available from www.accio-quote.org

Of course you can see this from any angle you choose.

FirstHarry is convinced by Lupin or Hermione Snape is good and
is still in service of the Order but when they meet Snape prooves
to Harry he is ever so evil.

Second Harry still believes Snape killed DD and then Snape
rescues Harry or one of his friends in front of him and he has
to reconsider.

This either on DD's order or not, it would be actually more
devastating to Harry, I believe, if he finds out he has been made
to believe Snape killed DD on DD's orders. I do not think Harry
will see the nobility of it for causing him so much pain and
hatred for the cause, but maybe it is just me.

Because Harry believing Snape and Snape proving to Harry he is
indeed on his side will not be very huge now will it? It would
cool down it being now even more personal than Harry-Voldermort before it even began. They will just shake hands and have a butterbeer together.


> > Dana before:
> > Everybody keeps saying that Snape has tried over and over to
save Harry's life, but the only real attempt that has registered
with me is in book 1. <SNIP> - other examples from books

> Ceridwen:
> People will, of course, disagree with your view that Snape did
nothing to help Harry and friends in PoA. I think the 'conjuring
stretchers' to get the vulnerable people off the grounds while
werewolf!Lupin was at large would be seen by some to be a
life-saving measure. And of course, the Dementors were out there,
and we know from the beginning of the book that they seem to be attracted to Harry for some reason, and attack him accordingly.
So, while getting rid of Sirius may or may not be a motive for
taking him into the castle, it would have no part in taking Harry.


Dana now:

The dementors returned to their positions at the gate and
Werewolf!Lupin fled on his own after the fight with Padfoot and
he doesn't know he is out cold so his animal instinct will not
bring him back or he would not have left in the first place.
Besides second Harry and Hermione were there and they were not at risk of Lupin at that time and Snape did not save them.

Technically the only two Snape saved that night were Sirius and Buckbeak because bringing all of them back to the castle made
it possible for Harry and Hermione to go back in time. I know
that some people will even grant Harry's first survival to Snape because if he was soul sucked by the dementors the first time
he could not go back in time, so unless JKR makes it
specifically clear that she meant the time travel bit that way,
I am still happy to believe the fact it was meant to read that
Prongs and Harry did the saving bit there.

And of course if Snape did save Harry from the dementors the
first time it becomes irrelevant because time1 + time2 = end time
and only the end time is the one that remains standing. But
granted if he did it will add his attempts to safe Harry actively
to two. In 6 years it is still not enough to consider it over and over but for argument sake I am prepared to let this one go.


> Ceridwen:
> And in OotP, Snape didn't have to send the Order to the MoM at
all. Harry's comments were cryptic (he's got Padfoot at the place where it's kept, if I recall it right), Snape could easily say
that he didn't understand and couldn't make eye contact for the purpose of Legillimency with Harry because Harry actively avoided
his eyes. Not true, as the readers know. But, Snape could have
said it.


Dana now:

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that Snape was already
privy to LV's plan because he would not use that information in
Spinner's End to convince Bella otherwise, and no, I do not
believe he made it up because Bella is accusing him for not
being there, so she knows he knows, and he only replies that he
did so on a direct order to remain behind, not that he had no
way of knowing or that he had orders from DD to watch over
Hogwarts or something like that. He states specifically that he
had orders from *LV* to not blow his cover.

It would have been safer for him to use a different excuse than something that can be checked even if Bella will not; it would
still be possible to check it. So if you are lying then better
make up something impossible to confirm, especially if the lie
can bite you in the *ss later if by change the conversation comes
up in the presence of LV. Even if he was not aware of when it
would have gone down, knowing what the plan is and hearing
Harry's distress, he would have put two and two together that it
would go down that night.

And if he was DDM through and through then Harry's safety was
more important than his cover, especially if we have to believe
Snape was ready to die at the end of book 6. So apparently going
out with a bang only means something to Snape when he thinks it
is worthy enough. And Harry isn't it. DD's appreciation for
saving Harry isn't enough either.

Snape ignoring Harry's little message would result in too many
problems and saying he didn't understand is irrelevant because
there were too many witnesses to proove that Harry had tried to
warn Snape, and even if Snape did not understand what Harry was saying, it should have been enough to cause concern especially
after Harry went missing. So not doing anything is not an option unless you think DD would forgive Snape for getting Harry killed.

I do not think DD is that noble, and in case Harry again
miraculously survives, as he has an annoying tendency of doing,
then he can be sure it will be discussed, so better do something.
To actually consider this an attempt to save Harry at all costs
and thus prove Snape is saving Harry over and over, again and
again, is a little stretching the nobility of our dear Severus
Snape in my opinion.

But still I do not consider this an active involvement of Snape
to save Harry because it can be easily read as he was saving his
own cover and if Harry was killed it would be no fault of his
because he did everything he could, right? And he would not be
losing any sleep over it I am sure. And if we leave the
Spinner's End part out of it, then there were many times  Snape
could have known something was up besides the fact DD told him
as much. We still have the Arthur incident (guarding the DoM),
the Occlumency lessons, Snape seeing part of the dreams Harry
was having and Snape himself telling Harry LV might try to misuse
the link between them and everything else that happened in
relation to guarding the prophesy that year. We know from Sirius' slip up that the Order knew LV was going for the prophecy and
Snape is part of the Order.

I have been told over and over that Snape is such a brilliant
clever man that it will hardly be a good excuse for him to say
he could not have known what was going on or where Harry would
have gone to. But then again who knows, maybe JKR is indeed so
bad at maths that she really can't count the total of hours
between right after dinner and sunset in the summer.

Still I am not granting Snape any points, call me stubborn.


> > Dana before:
> > He could have warned the MoM so the DE's would have been surprised by a dozen aurors instead of a couple of teenagers.
For G*d's sake, they were running around the MoM building: how
hard would it have been for an auror to run into them without
any risk to Snape's cover?

> Ceridwen:
> Since they didn't run into a dozen Aurors, it is feasable to
assume that Aurors don't frequent the department in the MoM that
the DEs and the DA were running around. I expect that LV would
know this, since at least one of his people works at the MoM. If
a dozen Aurors showed up, it would have been a tip-off that
someone was passing LV's secrets.

Plus, at this point, official Ministry stance on the return of
Lord Voldemort is that he hasn't returned. A tip that LV's DEs
were trying to steal a prophecy would probably be written off as
a crank call. If they're as sensitive about false reports as many Real Life police departments are, Snape would have been called in
to verify, if he could, that the information was correct. We do
know that the MoM doesn't adhere to Real Life protocol regarding prisoners such as Sirius Black and Stan Shunpike, so I could
easily see them dragging whoever reported a DE attack *in the Ministry itself* down to the Ministry for questioning, as their official line is that LV is not back. This would be reported in
the Daily Prophet, and it would probably have gotten to LV sooner
because of his own man being in the Ministry.


Dana now:

I grant you this one because it is indeed not a well thought out
idea and will leave it at that for now, because it raises some
other questions not specifically concerning Snape's actions.

Although it is strange that DD was able to overflow the MoM with Auror's after the fact. So why not have Shacklebolt or Tonks
raise the alarm, but this is for another discussion.

The point I was trying to make, but of course missed, was that
I'll feel Snape did wait longer than necessary to make sure the
DE had a chance to complete their mission before the Order
arrived, and, if he was really only working for DD then he
should have cared less, but again this is still only based on
the time it took for the order to arrive and therefore the time
it took for Snape to raise the alarm (as according to DD they
left immediately after receiving Snape's message).

Instead of only checking if Sirius was still at headquarters,
he could have mentioned it would be a good idea to send someone
over to the DoM just in case. And don't say it was not his call because those were the only two things the Order were busy with
all year. Keeping both Harry and the prophecy from LV.


> > Dana:
> > Many argue that Snape did not hurt Harry on the way out at
the end of book 6, but apparently they forgot Snape was run over
by a Hippogriff.

> Ceridwen:
> Buckbea... er, Witherwings didn't attack Snape until after his
confrontation with Harry. I'm not sure where you're going with
this observation, so I can't say any more.


Dana now:

Snape did try to hurt Harry before Buckbeak attacked him and
people are using this argument to proove Snape is good because he could have hurt Harry if he wanted to.

Although he mocked Harry at first and only reflected what was
thrown at him, he then loses it when Harry hit a nerve and
Snape loses control (and besides if all the DE had orders to
leave Harry alone so did Snape so it can be used either way and
this would not be a particularly good time to go against LV's
orders)

This is what is said right after the "don't call me coward"
bit:

Quote page 564 UK ed:

'And he slashed at the air: Harry felt a white-hot, whiplike
something hit him across the face and was slammed backwards into
the ground. Spots of light burst in front of his eyes and for a moment all the breath seemed to have gone from his body, then he heard a rush of wings above him and something enormous obscured
the stars: Buckbeak had flown at Snape.'

We know that Snape, for whatever reason does not want Harry dead,
we are told this by Quirrel in book 1, but Snape is not shy of
handing out some punishment if the right buttons are pushed.
This is proof of nothing either way, but it makes no sense to me
to only read this as proof Snape must be good, and that is what I
was trying to point out.


> > Dana before:
> > So what do I think DD asked of Snape in the argument in the forest? Well, I believe DD asked Snape to stop his spying days
and help Harry in his task to defeat LV.

> Ceridwen:
> But, Snape's spying is helping Harry to defeat LV. Snape brings
information to the Order that, apparently, no one has complained
about, not even after events on the Tower. It may well have been
Snape's information that told Dumbledore that Voldemort knew about
the destruction of his Diary Horcrux and blamed Lucius for it,
for one example. This gave DD insight into Draco's task and
mindset, and to the probable fact, later borne out as truth, that Draco was being set up to die as punishment for Lucius.


Dana now:

Snape's spying days are over because there is, as far as we
know, at this moment no one to share his information with. Sure,
this can change in book 7, but I still feel it would be far more likely that DD wanted Snape to be accessible to Harry in case
Harry gets hurt by an attempt to destroy a Horcrux. Information
is not what Harry needs, at least not from LV's camp, and as I
said if LV knows about the destruction of the Diary then he will
not let anyone else be privy to his little secret and I find it
hard to believe he would not be suspicious if Snape was snooping around for them or even asking questions about them. So do I have
to believe that this giant scheme was orchestrated in case LV let something slip and this could not be so without killing DD? I am
not sure if my simple mind can understand this.

Could you point out to me where it is I can find the information
in the book on LV finding out about the Diary being destroyed, I
know I have read it somewhere but can't find it. And also where it
is said the DoM fiasco and Lucius being locked up in Azkaban was
not reason enough to set up Draco's task?

> Ceridwen:
> Another thing is that Snape, or no DE for that matter, can just quit the DEs. Karkarov tried it, and was hunted down and killed. Regulus Black tried it, and died. If Dumbledore is trying to
protect the people under him, then he couldn't suggest that Snape just quit the DEs.

Suggesting that he stop spying would be the same thing as
suggesting that he just drop his membership in that organization,
not go when summoned, just like Karkarov didn't go.

Suggesting that he stop spying would be the same thing as
suggesting that he just drop his membership in that organization,
not go when summoned, just like Karkarov didn't go.


Dana now:

I do not see these two examples as the same thing. Sure, Snape
would move up on the "to do list" but both of these guys were
alone and were not under the protection of DD or the Order. All
the Order members risk their life even just by association, so why would Snape's life be more important than any other, and besides,
in this case DD would only ask Snape to make the transition to the side of good permanent. The risk of being found out if he indeed
is DDM was always there and if Snape had a death wish, as we are
to believe why is he having such a hard time killing DD, why would
this be a problem? I am not trying to say that it is definite that
DD asked this of him but DD asking him to kill him and Snape
arguing because he was planning to die and now has to live does
not go well with him being afraid to leave the DE and die because
of this.

He either wanted to die because not killing DD would have
resulted in his death or he never planned to die and he killed
DD to make sure he lived. Orders or no orders the UV still made
sure he only had these two options when Draco decided the time to move was now. So to me it makes more sense he would argue with DD about something that would cause his death than something that he
already was bound by UV. Especially because he still could have chosen to let the order follow him on the tower if it was really
all for Harry and Draco, because with a little help he could have taken those 4 DE's with ease and then said sorry to DD for dying
and then keel over for failing in his task. The story would be
less fun but he would have won my heart then and there.

Besides, what do you think the Order or the MoM will do to him
if they catch him, have some tea?  The person privy to DD's plan
if he exists should hurry up to inform everyone before someone
kills Snape on sight or before he is taken to Azkaban. I do not
think LV would find it believable if they let Snape go with a
pat on the head for being such his brave guy for killing DD.

But what if DD asks this of Snape in order to protect him?
Because Snape has turned and he doesn't want Snape doing
anything that would make a return to the light impossible? What
if DD was giving Snape a choice to do what is right and not what
is easy. And if he can help Harry directly to defeat LV the risk
to his life will be short lived we only have one book left (I
know Snape doesn't know he is a character in a book) and he has managed to stay alive since the first WW both as DE and Spy.

And, no in my book killing DD is not right, not even for the
greater good, because Harry's heart is permanently damaged by
this, no matter how inventive the excuse for it will be. I do
not believe Harry would be able to forgive DD for orchestrating
such a thing for him to witness. I know I wouldn't. To make
someone believe he is murdered for my benefit is not a burden I
would want to carry. It would not be noble of DD to have
Snape split his soul so he can help Harry if helping Harry
could have been accomplished without it.

The only problem in all this is the UV nothing more nothing less
and if Snape had not made it this would have been a non-issue
because without it he could have remained in control of the
situation whatever way he wanted to go. If he wanted so
desperately to die then he could just have stuck up his middle
finger to LV and told him where to put it. (Metaphorically
speaking)

If DD wanted Snape in LV's camp then they could have made
something up that DD found him out and he escaped just in time
before he was dragged to Azkaban, for instance that DD found out
he passed information that led to the capture and murder of
Emmeline Vance as he was boosting about to Bella. Draco could
have been taken care of by DD and all would be swell. So the
whole DD orchestration scenario tells me either DD is really
bad at planning things or that he has no heart.

Neither are believable to me. Therefore it is easier for me to believe that DD saw Snape slipping into his old ways and was
trying as hard as he could to keep a hold on him before he did anything that would make the way back impossible. I also believe
that DD holds on to the idea to the very last moment that Snape
would chose the right path up until he walked onto the tower
and here after realizing Snape, like Harry, suggested really
made a UV as confirmed by Draco he started pleading with Snape
to not let go of the side of good.

To answer Magpie about the DADA curse, what if Snape thought he
could control the situation and that he could control Draco enough
to make sure he would have all the time in the world, but was
forced to take action as soon as Draco made his move? After all,
he never expected Draco to cause him such trouble. He could then finish the job on his own terms which would still leave many
options open after the fact but the DADA curse prevented this
from happening? This to me seems more logical than to think the
DADA curse forced DD to decide what Snape was going to do next.
JMHO


> Ceridwen:
> There are reasons why a leader would want to protect the people
depending on him. One very politic reason is that he would lose
the trust of the rest of the people under his command if he were
to fail one of them in such a way. If he would betray Snape by ordering him to do something that would probably get him killed,
then he would betray the rest as easily.


Dana now:

But isn't this what happened? Does this entire ordeal not seed
doubt and even despair in the people who depended on DD to lead
them? How can DD choose to let Snape live without them knowing it
was his own choice to sacrifice himself for Snape? I would even
go so far as to say that in situations like this people could
lose the faith in the cause because it was DD who trusted Snape
and it was DD that told them Harry is the one worth risking your
life for because he is the chosen one.

Just because LV keeps trying to kill him doesn't mean DD is
right that Harry is indeed the one who will do it. I don't think
this will happen but it is a great risk just to save one man and
provide a very uncertain future for a second young man without
even knowing it would have been enough there are no second
chances here.


> > Dana:
> > Personally, I believe DD's biggest mistake about trusting
Snape is sending Snape back to LV in GoF.

> Ceridwen:
> You're not the first to see it this way. And, most people see
some sort of validity to that argument, even if they don't agree
that this sent Snape over the edge. Some would say that, if DD
really didn't give Snape the DADA position because he thought it would draw him back into his Dark Arts past, as JKR and, in HBP Spinner's End, Snape himself, says, then sending him back to LV, where the use of Dark Magic is expected and encouraged, would do
the same thing in spades.


Dana now:

Yes, but this would not have been so in my opinion if Snape's
personal needs would have been met. Why does an eleven year old
boy come to school knowing more hexes than half the 7th years? Because like Hermione being knowledgeable makes you being admired
or so you feel. Just because Snape used the Dark Arts as his
focus point does not make him by definition an evil person. Most people want to be liked and if you do not have a natural ability
to draw people towards you, like we have been made to believe
James and Sirius could, then being better at something no one
else is can bring you far.

I truly believe that if DD had noticed or really understood
Snape's needs then the temptations would have been, well I will
not say non existent, but would definitely been less and the pull
to the right side would have been stronger. I am not trying to
shove the blame into DD's shoes here because it is still Snape's problem and his own responsibility but nevertheless DD should have seen it, especially after PoA that Snape was still living within
his childhood pains and never gotten over them. To not have seen
that makes me think this wise old man is a little detached from understanding human nature but we already knew that. That is a different discussion entirely.


> > Dana:
> > Snape indeed turned in his loyalty and the reason for this
is not because he is LV's man, but because he lost faith in DD.
<SNIP>

> Ceridwen:
> Your support for this makes for a very sympathetic reading of Snape. I'm not sure you meant to do that, but you were very
eloquent about the situations and their results.

I just wanted to reach out and pat his head for this! *ahem*
(putting tissue away) Again, others have suggested the same
scenario. Snape felt betrayed by DD, he felt as if he lost
position with FatherFigure!DD when Harry arrived and supplanted
him as the favorite son. It's possible from an OFH (Out For
Himself) or even an ESE viewpoint. It's also possible from a
DDM viewpoint with a Snape who is somehow feeling angsty but
still determined to be against LV.


Dana now:

Yes, I meant it that way and no I am not patting him on the head
because every action he takes is still his own responsibility but
I am not an ESE!Snaper. Every action we encounter in life has a
consequence some of them are within our own control and some of
them aren't. What is within our own control is the way we deal
with them. In my viewpoint Snape is driven by hatred. He thinks
he is in total control over his feelings and mocks Harry for
wearing his heart on his sleeve but hate is a very powerful
emotion and it can be all consuming and Snape is only in control
over it as long as he does not come into contact with the source.

When he comes into contact with his inner demons directly he
loses control. How much depends on that particular situation?
I'll bet it is more than Harry has registered. It was not a
surprise to me to see JKR had made Snape a Capricorn because
that is precisely what I see in Snape. The other shell projects
total control but underneath there is a very real power struggle
to keep the outer projecting as straight as possible.

And we see it flicker out of control when the battle is
momentarily lost. The only way to keep everything at bay is to
make sure that every situation is controlled by you, but that
is not how life works, not even for Snape. For this part I am
sympathetic to Snape because I know what it is like being a
Capricorn myself but I am not sympathetic to the way he chooses
to deal with his inner struggle because instead of dealing with
it and moving on he swells in it.

I have seen so many people seem sympathetic to Snape and forgive
him his own bullying because he was bullied, but two wrongs do
not make a right and it is Snape's choices that define him, not
what happened to him. You cannot change the past, not even when
reliving it, so not wanting to listen to anyone in the Shrieking Shack because he finally has a chance to make a wrong right is
not going to help him deal with the past feeling of hate. He lets
his hate drive his actions and that is never good, not even if it
was understandable.

Snape projecting a substitution for his father on to DD would be
very understandable just as it was understandable for Harry to project this on Sirius but you cannot expect these people to
actually replace the father you never had, even if like in
Sirius' case they try. And, therefore if Snape indeed did this
then he cannot blame DD for not heeling his hurt feelings of the
past, because only Snape can do that.

So for a moment, if we assume this is the reason that Snape lost faith in DD, then the only mistake DD is responsible for is not recognizing it, but Snape is still responsible for letting his
hate control him and let it now even shift to DD for not
correcting all wrongs and making Harry more important than him.
If Snape had moved on then he could have understood DD's actions because they essentially have nothing to do with Snape or how DD
feels about him.

Most people are capable of loving more than one person but
instead Snape used DD's actions as proof that it was not all
about him failing to see it never was. What DD did for Snape
should have been enough proof DD made a tremendous effort to go
out of his way for him. But with so much unresolved pain still
being very alive it will never be enough.

And I do not think LV can fill this void either in the long run.
The only thing that can is love of self but I am not sure if book
7 will be long enough to have Snape go through the process, but
you never know. Of course I could be so terribly wrong and Snape
was always ever so evil and out for power and a what you see is
what you get kind of man. We have to wait and see.


> > Dana before:
> > Only problem is, Snape still has the lifedebt and it will
come into play in book 7, and there we will see that Sirius'
little joke will save both Snape and Harry. Because it will force Snape out of LV's camp, and Harry's side will be the only one
left, and Snape will take it.

> Ceridwen:
> Interesting prediction, given ESE!Snape. And, very interesting
that you credit Sirius with starting these wheels in motion. It's true, but most people don't go back that far. It does carry out
the thread of choices having a bearing on future events, though.
Very interesting. If Snape turns out to be ESE, then I would want
to see something like this as it does carry the theme.


Dana now:

Well I am a big Sirius fan and JKR has made him suffer enough,
so in my wishful thinking mode she will credit him for setting up
the lifedebt that eventually will be of some use even if he never
had the foresight for it when he played it out. It would counter balance Snape's claiming credit for deposing of him. To me it
doesn't really matter if Snape is ESE because I feel for what he
did to Harry after Sirius died by taking a bag of salt and hose
it into Harry' open wounds is enough for me to see Sirius have a
go at him one last time even if he turns out to be DDM all along.


> > Dana before:
> > For those who might wonder why DD did not mention to Harry
that Snape might have turned, and also why DD would never ask
Snape to kill him in front of Harry, is because he knows what
hate can do to you, that it can consume you and that it will
drive all love out of you if you let it control you.

> Ceridwen:
> Very true. And, this has also been discussed. Harry already
hates Snape unreasonably at the beginning of HBP. He blames him
for Sirius's death. He admits to himself that he only feels this
way because it makes him feel better. Harry's hatred has already begun.

And, I do believe that he has to get rid of it in order to use
the Patented Power of Love to vanquish LV. To me, getting rid of,
releasing, his hatred, would be like cleaning a gun before using
it. A lot of DDM!Snapers are worried about Harry's apparent slide into hatred because of his Love being necessary to defeat LV.


Dana now:

Maybe I should have just written this in my rant because
essentially for me it is the only reason that I could never ever believe that DD would be willing to let it come to this in order
for the grand plan to work. And if JKR is going to sell me this
then these books will probably end up in the shredder. Don't get
me wrong JKR can do whatever she pleases but this would go
against all logic that she would have her "epitome of goodness"  willingly fulfill Harry's fire of pure hatred because this is a
power the Dark Lord knows enough of.

Yes, It will be great to see Harry overcome and win this fight
but there was already enough of it there after Sirius died than
to not have Snape himself add some more but to have DD do it.
That is one thing that I could not accept. That does not mean of course that I am not open to anything else, for instance that DD
was right about Snape not being pure evil, and that he was
somehow trustworthy and, if it is so I am sure she will find a
way to make this convincing as long as it is not DD made me do it
and he wanted you to watch it and experience what it is like to
really hate just as you had to learn what it is like to really
feel the pain of losing someone you love. (Which I still find
very lame in the way it was written but will hold my silence on
that issue and not waste valuable computer memory bytes on it)


> > Dana before:
> > Snape would not have died, not by UV or at the hands of LV,
if he let DD die on his own accord (if he was really dying from
the potion from the cave), so if Snape by legillimency saw DD was dying he could have stalled to let DD die because you cannot kill someone that is already dead, and the vow to do the task Draco
was ordered to do would nullify at that same moment.

> Ceridwen:
> Probably, the third provision of the UV would have been
rendered null and void if DD had died on his own. But we don't
know what LV would have to say about that. As you mentioned
earlier, we don't have any proof that LV wanted Snape to do
this in the end; we don't know that LV will let Draco off the
hook if Snape does the deed for him (though he may see the measure
as making sure the deed gets done - still, would LV think this
way?). And, we don't know if the UV would accept any DD death, or
if it must happen at the hand of either the original contracted assassin, or the one who promised to do it if the first failed.
We just don't know that much about Unbreakable Vows. So, we can't make the leap that Snape could definitely have waited for DD to
finish dying before AK'ing him. Or, we could make the leap that
he did wait until DD died, and in that instant, produced the AK
that sent the lifeless body over the battlements.

And, we don't know that Snape could have easily gone back to LV
if he 'slithered out of action' again. He may have actually
needed to boost his credits with LV, since he's been sitting at Hogwarts while the others have risked capture at the MoM, for an instance. He may need to prove by actions that he is LV's man.


Dana now:

Now we do not know if it was what LV wanted but re-reading the
scene it seems that way because all other DE's present instantly
step aside when Snape steps forward and no one says to him, hey
what are you doing, Draco should do it. Greyback gets blasted for losing his patience and the other DE's are very willing and even
ask Draco to step aside so they can take over if he is not going
to do it anytime soon. They all are a little too eager for my
taste to assume LV will be terribly upset with them if they kill
DD themselves. So have to reconsider that one for now.

Just before Snape cast the AK DD speaks to him so the stopping
of the heart was really fast if we have to believe DD just died before the curse hit him. The only line between Severus
 please

and the Avada Kadavra is Snape raising his want and pointing it
to DD. If DD died before Snape killed him there would be nothing
to bind the vow to. He can't say, héy that is not fair, come back
I have to kill you, you can't die on me before I can send you to
your doom, how dare you. (Or next great adventure what ever)

Technically Draco would not have failed in his task either, even
if he'd lowered his wand and was never going through with it.
Snape could have taken the time pretending to talk to Draco to convince him to do it. Think of your mother Draco, L