Why DD did not ask Snape to kill him. (extremely long)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 166125

Dana wrote:
<snip>
> For me the idea that Snape did everything on DD's orders is
stretching believability to such an extent that it makes it highly
improbable because it makes assumptions that DD knew that Narcissa
would come to Snape for help. <snip>

Carol:
I actually agree with you here. It makes no sense for Snape and
Dumbledore to have planned the UV though Snape could have had some
more general order, such as "do whatever is necessary to protect
Draco." But Dumbledore would not, IMO, have suggested that Snape
deliberately place his life on the line in such a way.

Nor do I think, as some people have suggested, that the idea came from
Voldemort since Narcissa is clearly going behind his back. It seems to
be her own idea, not part of a plan or she would have deliberately
brought Bellatrix with her rather than being followed by Bellatrix,
who is trying to prevent her from going to Snape, but a last-minute
inspiration to bind Snape to his promise to protect Draco.

I do think that Dumbledore and Snape had a long-range plan that
included his taking the DADA class (if DD could get Slughorn to teach
Potions) and returning to the DEs at the end of the year, but their
plans were modified first by the knowledge that Draco was asssigned to
kill Dumbledore (as Snape must have told him; hence, the extra
protections on Hogwarts in Harry's sixth year) and then by the UV
itself (DD tells Harry that perhaps he knows more about these matters
than Harry does, meaning, IMO, that Snape has told him about the
interview with Draco and everything that preceded it).

But, as I see it, the only motive Snape could have had for taking the
vow in the first place was to protect Draco without exposing his true
loyalties. (Making Bellatrix the bonder prevents her from reporting
their act of disloyalty to LV; she's implicated, too.)

Dana:
> Better yet I believe that it was Snape who provided the information
for LV to decide to go after DD and this is why;
><snip>
> 'I am pleased to say, however, that Dumbledore is growing old.
> The duel with the Dark Lord shook him. He since sustained a
> serious injury because his reactions are slower then they once
> were.' <snip>
>
> This is information that you never ever tell to your enemy because
it puts holes in your defence system. And if he is DDM then Bella is
the enemy and although she was not the one who told LV, as the order
for Draco already stood at that time, I am pretty sure LV knows this
information as well.
>
Carol:
Here I disagree completely. Not only is it Snape's job as double agent
to report some true information to Voldemort (otherwise, he'd be
rather useless as a spy and Voldemort would know his true loyalties
and kill him), but this particular piece of information would be
rather hard to conceal. Voldemort would find out from Draco or some
other Death Eater's child that Dumbledore has a blackened hand--he's
not keeping it secret and in fact exposes it to the whole school at
the welcome banquet (HBP Am. ed. 165). Snape mentions it as a "serious
injury," but note that he doesn't describe it to Bellatrix and
Narcissa. More important, he attributes it to slowed reactions--
exactly the cause that Slughorn suggests and Dumbledore goes along
with (67). IMO, Snape and Dumbledore *want* Voldemort and his henchmen
to think that Dumbledore is weaker than he really is, to lure them
into a false security. A similar objective is gained when Snape refers
to Harry as "mediocre to the last degree" (31). Voldemort
underestimates Harry, and, IMO, Snape wants him to keep doing so.

It's possible, however, that Dumbledore really is seriously weakened
though still a powerful wizard who could easily take on Draco and
probably several Death Eaters at this point. (I don't think that Snape
sees any danger to *Dumbledore*, who will not allow Draco to murder
him, only the danger to Draco for failing to complete his task.) If
so, that weakness, along with the blackened hand, which will soon be
public knowledge, requires an explanation. Slowed reactions sounds to
me like a cover story that Snape and Dumbledore have agreed upon, one
that Voldemort will believe given Dumbledore's immense age and the
battle at the MoM. But Snape can hardly tell Voldemort or his loyal
followers the real story, that Dumbledore was struck by a curse when
he destroyed one of Voldemort's Horcruxes (and I don't see how Snape,
whom DD trusts completely, could not know the cause of the curse) and
that Snape himself saved his life.

Snape, as always, is dealing in half-truths here, telling them as much
of the truth as they need to know but concealing anything that will
reveal his true loyalties (and, in this case, IMO, the full extent of
Dumbledore's power, which is still great despite the injured hand).

<snip>
Dana:
And maybe why he chose Draco for the task or why he suddenly changed
his focus to DD. Maybe he didn't change it at all but figured DD was
the only one standing between him and the one who made the prophecy -
Trelawney - and with DD at his weakest, he finally had a chance to
eliminate him. <snip>

Carol responds:
Dumbledore has always been "the only one that Voldemort ever feared"
and he's always wanted to eliminate him. And after Dumbledore defeated
Voldemort at the MoM, LV wouldn't need Snape or anyone else to make
Dumbledore his number-one priority. Dumbledore stands between him and
*Harry* (Trelawney is small potatoes) and must be eliminated, and the
humiliating defeat at the MoM makes that more necessary in LV's view
than ever.

As for LV's choosing Draco to "do the deed" (with DE backup), that
choice allows him to use someone at Hogwarts who's eager to prove
himself, someone who wants revenge himself for his father's arrest
(see my quotes in another thread), someone who happens to know a
secret way into Hogwarts if he can manage to get the cabinets fixed.
And if Draco fails, Voldemort still has the satisfaction of sweet
revenge against Lucius Malfoy for failing to obtain the Prophecy.

None of this has anything to do with Snape, who knows that Draco has
been assigned to kill Dumbledore but obviously doesn't know about the
Vanishing Cabinets or the plan to get DEs into Hogwarts. (He could be
bluffing, pretending to know Draco's job, but the protections on
Hogwarts, the interview with Draco that Harry overhears, and
Dumbledore's attitude suggest otherwise.)

Dana:
> The big problem in all of your theories, that Snape will be able to
help Harry from LV's side, is that Snape will not and never be able to
change LV's plans.

Carol:
And Snape knows that. He tells Narcissa exactly that, as you point out
yourself. He has to work *around* Voldemort's plans. Of course, he
can't change them. But he can, and does, report them to Dumbledore,
whose complete trust in him must be partly the result of the excellent
job he is doing of providing information about Voldemort's plans. ("It
is not your job to find out what Voldemort is telling his Death
Eaters." "That's your job, isn't it?" "Yes, Potter. That is my job."
Quoted from memory from the "Occlumency" chapter of OoP))
>
Dana:
> Snape keeps telling Bella and Narcissa even he can't change the Dark
Lord's mind which means that whatever LV is planning to do next after
DD is gone, Snape will not be able to influence it.
<snip>

Carol:
Of course. It would be dangerous to lie to them on that point,
wouldn't it? But Snape is subtle, and it's just possible that he can
distract Voldemort from his real danger, Harry, as he was distracted
by the Prophecy in OoP. He can influence and advise the Dark Lord,
but, of course, he can't change LV's mind once it's made up.

Dana:
> You all make assumptions that DD considers Snape the key to Harry's
victory while he isn't even able to help prevent the kid from being
lured to the DoM (with or without alerting the Order),

Carol:
You also make assumptions. No doubt we all do. However, I believe that
it was Harry who entered the Pensieve and disrupted the Occlumency
lessons, Harry who wasn't trying hard at Occlumency because he hated
Snape and wanted to have that dream, Harry who believed the vision
that was implanted in his mind despite Hermione's pointing out its
unlikelihood, Snape who understood Harry's garbled message (and
perhaps the mental message as well) and verified that Sirius Black was
safe, Snape who discovered that Harry hadn't returned from the forest
and sent the Order to the MoM. . . .

Dana:
you make assumptions that Snape knows about the Horcruxes

Carol:
That is, admittedly, an assumption. However, it's based on canon.
Dumbledore trusts Snape *completely*, Snape saved him from the ring
Horcrux (it would be odd if he didn't know what the cursed object
was), Snape is an expert in Dark Arts *and* healing--DD chooses him
rather than Madam Pomfrey to deal with the ring curse for those
reasons. I would be very surprised if Snape didn't know about the
Horcruxes or figure out on his own how Voldemort managed to survive
the deflected AK at Godric's Hollow.

Dana:
and DD gave him the task to find them or provide the necessary
information for Harry <snip>

Carol:
We "all" make this assumption? I certainly have never done so, nor do
I know of anyone who has. I could be wrong, but we do not *all* make
any such assumption. And, if I may, I'd like to suggest that you not
lump all DDM!Snape theorists together as if we all held identical
views. We disagree with each other on many key points, for example,
how much Snape knew at Spinner's End, why he took the UV, whether he
actually killed DD (some think that he died from the poison or the
"unstoppered" ring curse), what's going on with the AK. And none of us
knows any more than you do what will happen in DH. At any rate, I
suggest that you deal with us as individuals rather than as a group,
without *assuming* that we hold identical views, which is manifestly
false.

Dana:
> And the inconvenience of not being able to give the information to
anyone is not a problem? <snip>

Carol:
Of course, it's a problem, and here we're relying on JKR to provide a
credible solution. Most of us are counting on Harry's forgiveness of
Snape as a key step in Harry's development. He has to defeat Voldemort
through Love, and his desire for revenge (in which he resembles Snape
himself, Sirius Black, and even Voldemrot) is, in the view of most
DDM!Snapers, holding him back. We are, of course, reduced to
speculation at this point. Plausible suggestions have been made, such
as a changed Patronus (foreshadowed in canon by Tonks' changed
Patronus) or a secret contact who knows of the UV and its possible
consequences and will still accept information from Snape. Snape's
status as outcast is certainly an obstacle but not an insurmountable
obstacle. There's also the undeniable fact that he knows more about
Dark magic and the healing of dark curses (shown through the ring
Horcrux, the opal necklace, and Sectumsempra) than anyone else in the
Order. JKR must have brought the knowledge into HBP for a reason. I
will be very surprised if it doesn't play out in DH.

Dana:
I do not for one minute believe that DD would lie to Harry.

Carol:
Nor do I (though he does conceal information from him at various
points). Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, but the reason he does
so is still, as he told Harry in GoF, "a matter between Professor
Snape and myself." Remorse for the Potters' deaths can't be the reason
because Snape was spying on LV "at great personal risk" before
Godric's Hollow. That he became a teacher between being a spy for DD
and Godric's Hollow makes it unlikely that he was present at Godric's
Hollow and, IMO, indicates that Dumbledore was happy to keep him safe
at Hogwarts in the uncursed Potions position. It is certainly not
evidence that Snape's loyalties lie with Voldemort.

Dana:
There might be more to it and he might have other reasons DD didn't
mention but a lying DD to make a more plausible Snape as DDM is not
plausible in my book

Carol:
And which of us DDM!Snapers is positing a lying Dumbledore? I'm not. A
Dumbledore who keeps information to himself is, of course, canon, as
is a Dumbledore who encourages false rumors such as the Shrieking
Shack's being haunted. But lie to Harry, as opposed to telling him
only as much as DD thinks he needs to know? When have we said that?

DDM!Snape does not depend on Dumbledore's lying to Harry. It's
Dumbledore's honest opinion. He trusts Snape completely. And, being
someone who trusts Dumbledore's judgement, I trust Snape, too. (Just a
hint. You might try making a few concessions rather than blocking out
the possibility of DDM!Snape altogether. It would make your arguments
more credible. Otherwise, you sound as if you've closed your mind and
believe what you want to believe.)

Dana:
> and neither is putting others at risk by making Snape take a UV and
ordering him to kill DD.

Carol:
And here we agree. DDM!Snape is not dependent on any such argument.

Carol, hoping that Dana will look at actual assertions that other
posters have made and not generalize about some imaginary shared
conception of DDM!Snape

Reposted to add page numbers and tone down the sarcasm, which was
prompted by the tone of the post to which I was responding