Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 166193

> zgirnius:
> The parallel is only present if Snape's intention in taking the Vow was DDM!  Some
> combination of he believed he could get out of it with Dumbledore's help, he believed it
> would help shore up his spying role, he believed it would help protect Draco, and he 
> believed it could help control Draco's plot by winning the trust of Draco and Cissy. If he 
> never planned to carry out the third clause, he was putting his own life on the line for 
> loyalty and the protection of friends.

Jen:  If this is the case, then there wouldn't really be a parallel, or no parallel with Snape 
and Sirius.  Come to think of it, there never was one since Sirius never actually took the 
Fidelius, it was Peter, and he was lying when he took it.  So if Snape is lying, then the 
parallel is Snape and Peter, both took a vow/oath and lied about what they were planning 
to do.

> Jen before:
> Is it morally okay to agree to potentially kill someone via a dark magic vow even if the 
> reason a person is doing so is good and the man whose life is in question doesn't mind?   
> 
> zgirnius:
> What makes this possible in my eyes is the possibility that Snape knew he was lying 
> when he took the Vow. The twitch could indicate a recognition that since he would 
> certainly not kill Dumbledore, his consent to the the final clause of the Vow could mean
> his own death.

Jen:  That could be, I see that possibility.  Even if this is true,  I still see an ethical dilemma 
if Snape agreed to take an Unbreakable, a risky Vow even before he heard all the clauses,  
when he had a perfect excuse not to since his loyalty is (supposedly) pledged to the Dark 
Lord above the DE's.  Snape can't guarantee a good outcome by lying and planning not to 
carry out the clauses.   

> zgirnius:
> I think Snape did make the Vow on his own initiative. There was only a plan (to deal with 
>Draco) after he made it. Dumbledore had the choice in the sense that when Snape told 
>him what he had done (promptly, before the school year even started) Dumbledore had
> the choice of how to handle the problem. 

Jen:  Do we know when Snape told DD?  All I remember is the talk after Christmas break 
between Dumbledore and Harry.  Back to the parallel with the Secret Keeper, I was pointing 
out the ethical difference between the two scenarios:  Snape making a unilateral choice 
which could potentially involve killing Dumbledore, even if Snape didn't intend to and was 
lying, is different from the Fidelius.  In that scenario Dumbledore presented the Fidelius as 
the 'best chance' to save the Potters and they made an informed choice.  Cleaning up after 
the fact is not the same as informed or indirectly informed consent. 

zgirnius:
> The choice he made was not the only way it could have been managed, and Snape
> accepted his decision on that. If Snape had no intention of killing Dumbledore, the plan
> chosen by Dumbledore posed potential dangers for Snape. Specifically, if Dumbledore 
> was wrong about Draco, and Snape did his best to stop Draco from succeeding, he'd
> wind up dead. (This is actually what I believe the argument in the Forest was about -
> Snape's worry about the plan, which Dumbledore dismissed with a 'you agreed to do it'.)

Jen:  I'm uneasy if JKR takes the route of Snape choosing the Vow with the idea that he 
wouldn't ever carry out the clauses, and then placing the responsibility for his choice 
squarely in Dumbledore's lap (if Snape was ordered to kill him).  I would need to find out 
there was another motivation for the UV, some reason Snape took the Vow besides just 
thinking everything would work out okay and he might learn information for the good 
side.  That's his job anyway, he doesn't need a dark vow to ensure getting information.  
Meaning the UV would need to be a trap Snape knew he wouldn't be able to spring and he 
chose the Vow as the better of several awful choices (options JKR would hopefully lay out 
in explicit detail).

zgirnius: 
> My opinion on what the plan was hinges on the Tower scene. From what we see there, 
> the plan appears to have been for Snape to try and keep Draco from hurting anyone 
> else, but leave Draco free so he would be forced to face Dumbledore alone. No Death 
> Eaters, because *surely* Draco could not insert them into the situationn no 
> Crabbengoyle because Snape would interfere with them. Then Dumbledore would 
> convince Draco that he is 'not a killer' and hide him and his family from Voldemort.

Jen:  But they didn't need the UV for that plan!  That's a fine plan, a good plan.  The UV was 
an error on Snape's part, not because of the poor outcome, but because there was no need 
for it in the first place (given the information we have).  Everything is dependent on why 
Snape took the UV in my opinion.  I hope JKR has a very good, morally consistent 
motivation for an unnecessary dark vow besides just needing a way to kill Dumbledore and 
make Snape appear to be a bad guy.  

Jen R.