A Clarification on Trial / Hearing and Other Legal Issues
justcarol67
justcarol67 at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 17 18:47:10 UTC 2007
No: HPFGUIDX 166195
Goddlefrood wrote:
<snip>
> The constitution of the panel (my word for the moment, it will
interchange with others) is in fact, getting the quote, and with a nod
to Carol (I'm coming to your bit, don't worry ;):
>
> "Interrogators: Cornelius Oswald Fudge, Minister of Magic; Amelia
Susan Bones, Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement;
Dolores Jane Umbridge, Senior Undersecretary to the Minister. Court
Scribe, Percy Ignatius Weasley -" (OotP, Bloomsbury Hardback Edition
[all my further references from same, book and chapter that is, until
noted otherwise], p. 127 - The Hearing), which apparently appears at
pps. 138-39 of the Scholastic Edition - not sure if hardback or paperback)
>
Carol responds:
Page numbering is the same for the hardback and paperback versions of
the American edition, which is why I always refer to "Am. ed." without
specifying hardback or paperback. (It's shorter than "Scholastic ed."
and clearer for those who don't know that the American publisher is
Scholastic.)
Goddlefrood:
> This tells me that the presiding body (Lupinlore kindly note;))
consists of three people, Fudge, Ms. Bones and, hem hem Ms. Umbridge.
>From this:
>
> "'The Chair recognises Dolores (note spelling please) Jane
Umbridge, Senior Undersecretary to the Minister,' said Fudge."
> (p. 134) <snip>
>
> I take it from this that Fudge was the first amongst equals on the
presiding body and the Chairman, so somewhat more like a Tribunal than
a Court (although as mentioned the distinction is a quite fine one),
and does not lead to any concession on terms (my preference being
presiding body). This is confirmed to me by the fact that Fudge reads
the charge at the beginning (p. 128), and, at the end of the hearing
announces the not guilty decision. "Cleared of all Charges" (p. 138).
>
> Ms. Bones's function appears to be that of legal expert (reference -
p. 131), not factual judge, she is, after all, the Head of the
Department of Magical Law Enforcement. The entire Wizengamot, when the
vote is taken is the arbiter (now there's a word for you) of fact. She
certainly *is not * there as an arbiter of fact herself, except
insofar as she is a member of the Wizengamot and has a single vote. <snip>
Carol responds:
If you'll look back at my previous posts, quotes and all, you'll see
that Fudge has taken advantage of his position as Minister for Magic
to include himself and Umbridge as interrogators. The job of
interrogator (judge?) was supposed to be Madam Bones's alone, as Head
of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, just as it's Barty
Crouch Sr.'s alone (with no interference from the then-current
Minister for Magic) in the GoF Pensieve scenes. The hearing was
originally supposed to take place in Madam Bones's office. See also
the remarks from Tonks et al. on Madam Bones' fairness. All quotes can
be found upthread.
Nor does Madam Bones vote on the question of whether to drop the
charges or declare Harry guilty. (Note that, as she poses the
question, an innocent verdict is not an option. She's making it
possible to clear Harry of charges altogether. I appeal to
Goddlefrood's expertise here as to whether that means that his hearing
is not a matter of public record, as it would be if he'd been found
innocent.) She *calls for* a vote, and *Fudge* votes, but Madam Bones
apparently doesn't, which is why I see her as judge rather than a
member of the jury (the Wizengamot as a whole). "Fudge raised his
hand; so did half a dozen others, including the heavily-moustached
wizard and the frizzy-haired witch in the second row." (p. 138,
Bloomsbury edition.) There is no corresponding reference to Madam
Bones, who, after all, would be influencing the vote she's calling for
if she voted.
Fudge again steps in to say "Cleared of all charges, but that does not
make it his job to do so." He is, IMO, overstepping his authority here
and throughout the book with his ministerial decrees and the
appointment of Umbridge as High Inquisitor. (Since Fudge doesn't
behave this way even at the end of GoF, when he refuses to believe
that Voldemort is back, but now thinks that DD is trying to take over
the Ministry, I think that he's increasingly under Umbridge's influence.)
BTW, and this aside has no real importance, I wonder who the mustached
wizard and frizzy-haired witch who voted with Fudge are. Allies of
Umbridge who may appear again or just background characters added for
realism?
Carol earlier:
> > There is no evidence whatever that Percy thinks that Harry will be
sent to Azkaban. That thought occurs to *Harry* twice before the Order
comes to rescue him.
>
Goddlefrood:
>
> As I mentioned in
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/166055 this is
correct. Thank you Carol. :) <snip>
Carol:
You're welcome. Glad we agree on that point.
Carol, also agreeing with Goddlefrood that Percy will not turn out
evil (though I fear that he'll end up dying to save Ron or some such
thing)
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