Madam Bones, Crouch Sr., and legal proceedings in the WW (Was: A Postscript )

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 166219

Goddlefrood wrote:

><snip>
> It is a fact, as Carol points out, that the hearing was 
> originally to have taken place in Madam Bones's office. I addressed
that point in 166206 - briefly "ought to be" not "is", as I believe I
put it and my analysis was only in respect of what *did* happen, not
in respect of what *ought to have* happened. <snip>

Carol responds:
Yes, it's a fact. And I infer from that fact that Fudge, whose role
ought to be purely executive, is interfering in judicial matters. (It
seems that the WW already has no separation of powers with regard to
the legislative and judicial branches. Fudge, possibly under
Umbridge's influence, is making matters worse in OoP.)

I keep forgetting to mention that Voldemort must have wanted Madam
Bones dead not so much because she was a powerful witch as because she
was fair and objective, possibly incorruptible, and held a powerful
position. Fudge, in contrast, was easily manipulated, both by Umbridge
(whose motives remain unknown but who does not seem to be a Death
Eater) and by Lucius Malfoy, who definitely was/is a Death Eater. I
remain convinced that, under Umbridge's influence, he took advantage
of his position as Madam Bones's superior to share or take over some
of her duties. She *ought to have been* in charge of Harry's hearing,
with no interference from Fudge or his Assistant Undersecretary, and
she did, like Crouch before her, ask the jury (the Wizengamot?) for
its vote. 

In the GoF Pensieve scenes, the jury (and, yes, the term is used
twice) is the witches and wizards on the right-hand side of the room.
In Harry's hearing, it's less clear who is voting and who isn't. But
Fudge, the Minister of Magic, ought not to be voting--or even present
at a judicial function like a hearing. Madam Bones, acting as
judge/chairman, asks for a show of hands, as Barty Crouch Sr. does in
the GoF Pensieve scenes, but neither votes, as far as I can see. (It's
exactly like any organization that operates under Robert's Rules of
Order. The chairman does not vote.) Pathetic as the legal system is in
the WW, they do at least seem to have an established procedure, as
shown in the Pensieve scenes--three separate trials or hearings--which
Fudge is doing his best to disrupt or interfere with.

Goddlefrood:
<snip>
 
> The other matters raised in Carol's latest on list post suggest that
our views differ and that my explanations were less than opaque.

Carol:
Forgive me, but I think you mean "less than clear." They *were*
opaque, which is why I found them difficult to understand. <snip>

Goddlefrood:
 There is no Council of Law as such, as Carol put it, other than legal
reporting services, of which I am aware, so I fail to see where that
came from.

Carol responds:
Yes, there is. I certainly did not invent the term. It's mentioned
twice in the Pensieve scenes that I quoted upthread. To refresh your
memory, here are the relevant quotes again (Barty Crouch Sr. is
speaking in both instances):

"Ludo Bagman,
you have been brought here before the *Council of Magical Law* to
answer charges. . . ." (GoF Am. ed. 592). And again, with the unnamed
four accused of Crucioing the Longbottoms into insanity, "You have
been brought before the *Council of Magical Law* so that we may pass
judgment on you. . . ." (594).

Now, exactly what this council is and how it relates to the Wizengamot
is not clear, but apparently it's the same group as the jury that
Crouch also mentions (and again, you've snipped the relevant quotes).

Goddlefrood: 
> There was no jury, it was a Wizengamot. 

Carol:
There certainly *is* a jury, identified as such, in the GoF Pensieve
scenes. To quote again,  Crouch says with regard to Bagman, "It will
be put to a vote. *The jury* will please raise their hands. Those in
favor of imprisonment--" (593). In the case of the Lestranges and
Barty Jr., Crouch says, "I now ask *the jury* to raise their hands if
they believe as I do that these crimes deserve a life sentence in
Azkaban" (595). The jury is specifically identified as "the witches
and wizards along the right-hand side of the dungeon" (595).

In Harry's case, the jury is harder to identify, but it's clearly the
group of people whom Madam Bones asks to vote "in favor of clearing
the witness of all charges" or "in favor of conviction" (OoP Am. ed.
130). As in the scenes with Crouch, the vote is by a show of hands (130).

Goddlefrood:
> The word "Decree" in canon also suggests to me that there is no
distinct legislature in the WW, unlike in the RW. <snip> Also, due to
certain matters in canon alluded to by Carol, there is a clear 
indication that the Wizengamot makes the WW's laws, as well as hearing
complaints and charges under those laws and, therefore, is less than
independent, as a judicial body should be. Hope that point is clear.
<snip>

Carol responds:
Here, I agree with you. The legislative and judicial functions are
oddly jumbled together. However, the executive branch (the Minister
and his staff) seems not to interfere in judicial proceedings in GoF.
In OoP, the Minister is certainly interfering with established
procedure, as indicated by the original location of the hearing (Madam
Bones's office) being changed to the dungeon courtroom, chained chair
and all, with Harry sitting where Igor Karkaroff and Ludo Bagman sat
for their hearings and three interrogators rather than one (the Head
of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement (Crouch in the Pensieve
scenes, Madam Bones in OoP).

BTW, the term "Wizengamot" almost certainly derives from
"witenagemot," meaning "meeting of wise men," a council that advised
the Anglo-Saxon kings. The witenagamot had only advisory powers; it
was not equivalent to a modern parliament or legislature. "Gemot"
(changed by JKR to "gamot") means "a public meeting or local judicial
assembly in Anglo-Saxon England." "Wizen," like the real word
"wizard," derives from "wis" or "wys" meaning "wise," so its etymology
closely resembles that of "witenagemot." I'm not sure how the
Wizengamot operates in relation to the rest of the government, but it
does seem to be primarily a legislative body, as you state. However,
the Educational Decrees in OoP are signed by the High Inquisitor
herself, with no indication that they have been presented to the
Wizengamot or even to the governing board of Hogwarts, which I believe
is independent of the Wizengamot. So the Ministry is not only
"interfering at Hogwarts," as Hermione states, but extending and
abusing its authority. ("Laws can be changed," says Fudge in "The
Hearing.") It was also Umbridge who drafted the anti-werewolf
legislation (two years before OoP, according to Sirius Black, and
therefore not directly connected with Remus Lupin, OoP 302), but
whether she was Fudge's undersecretary or a member of the Wizengamot
at the time is unclear. Nor is it clear what Dumbledore's duties were
as Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot. As I've noted, he had no role in
conducting the hearings in the GoF Pensieve scenes. That was Barty
Crouch Sr.'s job, erm, "function."

Goddlefrood: 
> Fudge had obviously had matters manipulated for his own purposes but
how that happened, whether he or Dolores did the necessary
manoeuvering to alter the conduct of the proceedings against Harry, I
will not speculate on. That it *was* done is clear, at least to me.

Carol:
Yes. That was part of my point. They have altered the procedures, and
the time and place of the hearing. Fudge talks about changing laws as
well and then sends Umbridge to Hogwarts to indoctrinate the students
and spy on the staff. But if you look at Fudge's normal personality,
revealed in PoA and HBP, as compared with the deluded and angry petty
tyrant in OoP, it strongly *appears* that he has been manipulated by a
poisonous toad named Dolores Umbridge.

Carol, hoping that the cited canon shows that she did not invent the
Council of Magical Law or imagine the juries in the Pensieve scenes
> 
> Goddlefrood, without malice and now disrobing once more, 
> having forgotten to do so in the course of his previous.
>