[HPforGrownups] Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 166229

> Dana:
> I agree completely with Jen. To me indeed he is not making a choice
> on the tower but I will not go as far as saying he made the decision
> in the beginning of the year but he made the choice the moment
> Flitwick entered his office and I tell you why. (which is of course
> absolutely influenced by a decision he made in the beginning of the
> year)
>
> To me his actions before he reaches the tower makes this clear to me;
>
> 1) He takes out Flitwick, instead of giving him orders to alert the
> MoM,
> 2) he never talks to anyone or does anything in his run to the tower.
> 3) he does not ask for any assistance while he does not know what to
> expect when he gets there.
> 4) He takes only one minute to explore the scene and take DD out; he
> never stalls to really think hard if it indeed is his only option.
> 5) On his way out he does not make sure all threats are eliminated
> for instance by taking out the big blond.

Magpie:
His actions definitely do seem to be something he plans from the first 
moment--but that doesn't mean he can't be DDM. I would think DDM/Spy!Snape 
would act exactly this way. The Order is just there protecting the castle 
from intruders. Snape would know far more what was really going down and 
know to get to Dumbledore and Draco.

Dana:
> I know Carol has debated the fact that no one could follow him on the
> tower, due to the spell but I disagree because he never asked anyone
> to follow him and then finding out they couldn't. I am pretty sure
> Snape would have known how to break the spell and it would have taken
> him only a second to do so but he never tries to take someone with
> him because he had already decided what he was going to do if it
> would come to it.

Magpie:
Again, I agree that Snape is not asking anyone to follow him--though I don't 
know whether he could necessarily break the spell or not, at least not 
quickly. But even not knowing what the DDM!Snape plan might be, it seems 
like it would probably involve him behaving the same way. We know that he is 
not reacting to the situation by rushing in to take out as many DEs as 
possible, declare himself DDM and alert the police (the Order is already 
there), but his not doing that doesn't make it impossible that he's DDM.

The main thing for me is that I don't think that any of us yet have the 
information to talk about why Snape did or didn't do everything he did. Both 
DDM and ESE Snape are doing things that go against the straight-line of 
pro-LV or pro-DD.

Dana:
> He also does not eliminate the biggest treat on the battlefield not
> on his way in and not on his way out; the big blond DE and we see
> Harry has to duck to not get hit by an AK thrown by the guy. He could
> have died then and there but Snape doesn't seem to care not only to
> keep Harry safe but neither to keep any of his supposed allies safe.
> As DDM what would he care that the guy ends up in Azkaban, he even
> lets the guy attack Hagrid and set fire to his cabin without
> intervening. He only says no when someone turns on Harry but
> apparently all other people DD cared about or even someone that
> always stood up for Snape is not his concern.

Magpie:
If Snape is acting the part of a DE here, which he is whether or not he's 
truly a DE, this is asking quite a lot of him for him. I doubt no matter 
what Snape's loyalties are that he considers it a priority to keep every 
single person who liked Dumbledore from being harmed at all. It seems again 
like the problems I had with some of the complaints about Snape's sending 
the Order to the MoM, that yeah, he's not doing what a real DE should be 
doing, and he is at points acting against that, but since he isn't making 
himself the big hero of the hour concerned with the smallest hurt Harry or 
his friends might have, he's suspicious.

Dana:
>
> Snape being so excellent in non-verbal spells, as he mocks Harry, is
> not able in his passing by to take out this guy without anyone
> noticing?

Magpie:
Which guy? At many points in the scene I do think it would be very hard for 
Snape to take somebody out without somebody noticing--though some think it 
was Snape who threw the Petrificus that stunned Greyback when Harry was 
attacked (this is when everything is confusing, which would maybe give him 
cover). I'm not saying there's proof that Snape *is* DDM, but if he's in his 
mode as DE, I would not expect him to take too many risks like that.

Dana:
> The main problem is that you base your assessment of what happened in
> Spinner's End on the idea that Snape was ready to die himself but
> that DD prevented him from doing so.
>
> Well self-sacrifice in the Potterverse is indeed seen as a highly
> noble thing but the problem is you cannot sacrifice self by ordering
> someone else to take your life. If DD would feel this is indeed
> necessary, then he went against his own moral code and Snape would
> still be at fault for that because him taking the vow would call for
> such measures.

Magpie:
I don't see how it would go against Dumbledore's own moral code to tell 
Snape that *if* it came down to a situation like the one he faced he should 
kill Dumbledore. Why can't you sacrifice yourself by asking somebody else to 
take your life? I'm not saying that's what Dumbledore can be proved to have 
done, but it doesn't seem like it's against the rules. (And when I say "a 
situation like the one he faced" I'm not basing that on the assumption that 
Snape had to take out DD because it was impossible to take out the four DEs 
etc., though I don't think he could have. I think it would have to go beyond 
that with connections to a more overall plan against LV.)

Dana:
> Bella does suspect such a move and therefore she takes every
> precaution to make it impossible for Snape to control Draco, someone
> Draco trusted for years, who thought himself his favorite student.
> You could even argue that Bella made sure it would be Snape who
> finished the job as it was discussed in length that Draco would not
> be able to do it anyway. Makes you wonder how much LV knows about the
> vow doesn't it. Would be indeed very handy information to assure
> Snape's loyalties. It was of course Bella who requested the vow in
> the first place

Magpie:
Was it? I don't have the book in front of me, but I thought it was Narcissa 
who actually brought up the Unbreakable Vow, with Bellatrix just saying that 
in general he won't take action. But I could be wrong.

Dana:

and who called Snape a coward for always hiding
> behind his orders. Besides Bella's explanation to Draco was enough,
> one has to wonder what made Draco lose his trust in Snape over such a
> simple excuse as Bella presents to him and if Bella was convinced by
> the vow then why mess with Draco in the first place.

Magpie:
Draco hasn't "lost his trust" in Snape, exactly. He thinks that Snape is 
trying to steal his glory. There's a slight difference. The lack of trust 
is, imo, defined by the world they are both supposedly in--DEs can't ever 
completely trust each other when it comes to currying favor with the Dark 
Lord. The story that Bellatrix has given him is simple, but that's why it's 
so believable. It *is* exactly what DE!Snape would be doing. Draco's 
response to Snape in HBP is perfectly logical given his internal and 
external situation, and Snape is unable to do really defend himself at 
all.because he's supposed to be exactly who Draco thinks he is.

The breakdown between Snape and Draco does involve suspicion and the 
destruction of trust, but I think it still fits into their generally caring 
relationship. Draco is rebelling and challenging Snape as the person he's 
always looked up to (Draco's age alone is part of his changing attitude 
towards Snape), but when he's hurt in the bathroom or is frozen on the 
Tower, he instinctively allows himself to be put into Snape's arms.

I would also suggest that Draco doesn't have to be completely driven by the 
thought that Snape is trying to steal is glory--that accusation may be the 
one he chooses to stand for everything underneath. Basically, the story of 
Draco in HBP is not primarily about Draco being anti-Snape and thinking 
Snape is a bad guy.

Dana:
> I am still pretty sure DD expected that LV would order Snape to
> finish the job as Snape expected himself; therefore I still believe
> that DD ordered Snape out of LV's grip, not further in, but Snape
> could not get out due to the vow because he already knew that if push
> came to shove LV's side would be the only one left.

Magpie:
Dumbledore needs to do some explaining here, then, because why did he send 
Snape to spy in the first place, then? Killing Dumbledore was always the 
most obvious job for Snape given where he was. Why send him back in GoF in a 
dramatic scene to a year later hold it against Snape that he's not getting 
himself out of it? And why does he suddenly want him out of it when things 
are heating up? Isn't that counter-intuitive? You don't pull your spy out 
when the enemy starts targetting you.

Dana:
> You know Jen's plan made me think of something. What if LV blamed
> Snape for the DoM fiasco or more importantly that he blames Snape for
> his comeback being known to the WW before he had all the cards in
> hand? Many will argue that LV could not have known Snape was the one
> sending the Order but there is one problem. Snape claims to have
> contributed to Sirius' death which means he so much as declares it was
> HIM who sent the Order. If he told LV the same thing then he pretty
> much spun his own web.

Magpie:
We don't know what Snape said to LV, but Snape claiming credit for Sirius' 
death doesn't necessarily mean he's admitting to sending the Order--in fact, 
he specifically *doesn't* admit to that when telling his story. Many assume 
Snape's taking credit for giving Voldemort background about Harry and 
Sirius' relationship.

> Dana:
> Personally I believe he did not tell DD about the vow

Magpie:
We do know that Dumbledore knows of some possibility of a Vow, because Harry 
tells him--we just don't know if Dumbledore thinks it's real, and if so, if 
he knows all the things Snape has Vowed to do.

Dana:
but I do
> believe DD knew more than he let on but he left Snape with his own
> choice as he has been doing with everyone the entire series, but I
> believe he was pleading with Snape to make the right choice and that
> was not killing him.

Magpie:
But why is he pleading? If Dumbledore *knows* that Snape is ESE he's behaved 
very strangely--more strangely than Snape--throughout the book by telling 
everybody he trusted him completely, not taking Harry's concerns seriously, 
and calling for Snape at the last minute, not to mention relying on Snape to 
heal everyone who gets hurt, including himself. How does he go from trusting 
Snape completely to pleading with Snape as if his mere presence makes him 
feel endangered with no change, no realization, no betryal? If he wasn't 
sure, he's got no reason to plead when he does. He starts pleading the 
second Snape appears.

Dana:
This is another reason I could never believe
> that DD would order Snape to take his life. Snape had free will,
> before taking the vow and on the tower but he made his choice. If he
> had a death wish he could have defied LV the moment the plan to use
> Draco to kill DD was known, it would have been as quick and as sure
> as the UV and he because he knew of the plan he could still help
> Draco.

Magpie:
He could have defied LV on the Tower, sure. But if that mean defying 
Dumbledore as well, he might not have done it. Taking the UV, I agree, 
remains a complete mystery, but one that I don't think is answered by him 
being ESE either.

-m