LV's bigger plan (was:Fawkes possible absence)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 166425

> Magpie:
> This is where Carol's and my arguments are getting mixed up. Threads can get 
> confusing.:-) It looks like it's actually you and I that are agreeing. Carol 
> is arguing that the mission is to kill Dumbledore, I'm arguing that it's 
> about Draco getting killed trying to do it. Which is why I now understand my 
> misunderstanding in the part that I snipped about Draco knowing the Order 
> wasn't there.

Jen:  I'm guilty of not reading the entire thread before posting, which
didn't help matters.  Now that I'm caught up, it's clear who is arguing
what position.  Sort of. <g>

> Magpie:
> True. HBP is difficult in many ways because Harry isn't even the focus of 
> the plot we're seeing. JKR has to give us information all second hand and in 
> limited ways, or through eavesdropping. I assumed I was supposed to accept 
> it anyway, since nothing else was put forward and it fit with what happened. 
> If I'm going to accept anything else, somebody in canon would have to 
> suggest it to me and it might change the story, imo.

Jen:  Yes, it would help my arguments to have something more direct
than possible story structure compared to other books and the omission
of Voldemort's words as my foundation!  Even though I agree with you
about every other book in the series, it's harder for me to agree that we
have to have a direct suggestion in HBP to make something possible
for DH (not saying probable here, just possible). 

I don't know exactly what was in JKR's mind when she made the statement,
'so much of what happens in book six relates to book seven that I feel almost
as though they are two halves of the same novel' (website), but I don't think she's
closing the door for one to look at what was happening in the middle of
other books, think about what had been suggested directly and indirectly
and then consider HBP in a similar light.

Magpie:
> I guess I thought that was one of the major themes of HBP, that this 
> throwaway thing Voldemort was doing while really being interested in other 
> things was something Dumbledore and Snape had siezed on for themselves. And 
> underestimating Draco (and thus kids in general) was also a theme, which is 
> why the invasion of Hogwarts was wonderfully anti-climactic. Not the 
> well-planned assault fans might have imagined, but Draco figuring out a 
> backdoor to save his family.

Jen:  I see everything you're saying is in the book, too!  I don't mean
to detract at *all* from what was to me a very beautifully written story,
culminating in that moment on the tower between Dumbledore and
Draco.  This scene will always represent the theme of HBP for me
personally,  showing what makes Dumbledore so different from
Voldemort, and Draco considering the opportunity to follow the path
in his own heart instead of the path laid out for him by others. 

> Magpie:
> That's a canon argument, you're right.:-) Though I still will wait to see if 
> it's connected to Voldemort's plan in the castle that night. None of the DEs 
> seemed to get anywhere near her. I am definitely open to considering where 
> Trelawney's going to be used now.

Jen: I have nothing else to offer in the way of persuasion, either. <g>

> Magpie:
> But he's *not* wasting time on the Malfoys. Telling Draco to kill Dumbledore 
> and seeing what happens takes no more time than any of the other ways he's 
> dealt with his followers. It's more like his trick on Peter with the hand 
> than an obsession. I'm up for finding out what else he was doing during the 
> year if it comes into DH, but I don't see temperment as any reason to think 
> he couldn't be punishing the Malfoys. He had good reason to be angry at 
> Lucius, and we've heard him go emo over followers who betray him. In the 
> graveyard, while he's telling Lucius to spend his time on better things, 
> isn't he making his followers listen to his big story and kiss his robes?

Jen:  That's true, he's not doing anything to make events
happen that we are aware of except the occasional death threats.
Bella is the one who seems to be expending the energy on Draco.  

This interests me, though.  You mention Voldemort
'watching what happens' and above said 'Dumbledore and Snape
had seized on' the events.  Would it discount what happened
in HBP for you, the way the characters acted and the choices they made,
to find out they all did exactly what Voldemort expected them to do?
That he put together the pieces about 'fools who love' and expected
Narcissa would go to Snape as the natural choice after Lucius, that
Snape could not refuse her, that Bella would want to drive a wedge
between Snape and Draco (or anyone really), and that Dumbledore
would do everything he possibly could to safeguard the students
under his care at Hogwarts if DE's entered, including dying himself
if that was the only way to make them leave?

I don't mean to say Voldemort is omniscient and he planned every
detail playing out exactly as it did.  Rather, I see a reason behind
JKR's choice to tell the story of Draco/Dumbledore while spooling
out the transformation of Riddle into Voldemort at the same time. 
Voldemort underestimating the power love holds is a double-edged
sword, it is his downfall, but also the core of his cruelest skill--'I can
make bad things happen to those who annoy me.  I can make them
hurt if I want to.'  His methods are more sophisticated now, he doesn't
require only magical power to hurt people anymore.  I would not
be disappointed in the story we have to find out that Voldemort was
'behind' the events of HBP and whatever DH holds, not by literally
moving the pieces on the chessboard but by pitting people against
each other, spreading discord and enmity.

So when I consider things like whether Trelawney was kidnapped or
if Wormtail might be in the castle in rat form or whether LV wanted
to retrieve the tiara Horcrux from the ROR (just threw that one in there
for fun <g>), they are all plot-based ideas that could spring out of the
Vanishing Cabinent.  These last couple of paragraphs are what I would
consider the crux of Voldemort having a 'bigger plan', a plan set in motion
in HBP and continuing on into DH, with a revelation by Voldemort himself
explaining how events came to pass.

Jen