[HPforGrownups] Excusing Snape of any responsibility ( was Re: Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168161

Doing some canon picks of my own, because apparently I can't stop myself!

Dana:
> And his fascination for the Dark Arts had nothing to do with it? I
> rest my case Carol, and it is making excuses for someone's personal
> choices by trying to reason that he might have made these choices
> because he was pushed towards it due someone treating him unfairly
> when he was young.

Magpie:
I think absolutely his interest in the Dark Arts was a factor, and that he 
started to get sucked into the blood purity thing as well at some point 
(whatever his reasons for doing that). But I would also imagine that his 
anger at the Marauders and other stuff were part of it too. That seems like 
just the sort of thing that would mix up with everything to make an angry 
kid like Snape. I don't think that makes the Marauders responsible for what 
Snape did, but they were clearly a big influence in his life. It's not their 
fault he still hasn't gotten over it either, but for whatever reason, Snape 
is shaped by them. It's not just a cause and effect where anybody who gets 
bullied ZAP! becomes a DE. Snape was bringing a lot to the table already. 
But everybody's actions have consequences. It's no surprise Snape still 
doesn't like these guys.

> Dana:
> It doesn't matter what his motives where, he couldn't do anything to
> actively prevent Draco trying to kill DD, because the moment he would
> do that the vow would kick in because Draco would fail his task. That
> is what canon tells us and because Snape could not control Draco
> because of the vow, his action put the entire school at risk if Draco
> somehow succeeded to bring in the DEs. And as canon stands now Snape
> omitted telling DD about the vow because DD is still telling Draco
> that he doesn't believe Snape actually took one but just would tell
> Draco this to win his trust. So DD was counting on Snape to deal with
> the situation while Snape actually couldn't do anything.

Magpie:
Well, it's not exactly canon. First, Snape was free to do plenty of things 
that could have prevented Draco from completing his task, it seems to me. 
The only real problem from the Vow is that Snape needs to do it if it seems 
Draco will fail. Dumbledore doesn't seem surprised when Harry tells him 
about the Vow. It seems equally possible that Snape told him about it. We 
don't know. I assumed he did.

Dana:
He was just lucky it
> wasn't too late for Kathy and he had no choice but to help Kathy
> because if she had died then Draco was guilty of murder and he was
> just cleaning up his mess, just as much as it was his duty to help,
> it is not some admirable choice he made to help Kathy, he couldn't
> just stand around and let the girl die.

Magpie:
I admit, this sounds like a stretch the same way I find the tiny window of 
time where Snape absolutely had to contact the Order in OotP while being 
somehow aware of just how long it should take Lucius to get the prophecy 
starting at that time a stretch. If Snape's the only person who could cure 
Katie, he could have let her die easily and just say that it was beyond him. 
Keeping Draco from being a murderer was, remember, Dumbledore's goal in HBP. 
So while I think DE!Snape was free to heal Katie too, so it's not proof he's 
DDM, saving Draco from being a murderer was working with DD. It's not proof 
of anything, but I also don't think it's something Snape had to do.

Dana:>
> He knew about Draco's task before the school year began so he knew
> that Draco would be going to try to murder someone and because he
> doesn't know how Draco is going to attempt it, this would increase
> the risk of an innocent person inadvertently coming in harms way.

Magpie:
Yes, but this is DD's plan, so it doesn't say anything about Snape's 
loyalties. DD knows Draco's assignment too, and is not interfering. That's 
DD's plan. LV wants Draco to die and would be fine with Draco being caught.

> Dana:
> As I said in previous posts we do not see Snape repeatedly risking
> his live because he never puts his cover at risk and even a fellow DE
> accuses him of this. Him going to LV in GoF was not putting himself
> in more risk then not going and he actually had more chances facing
> LV then by defying him.

Magpie:
If Snape is DDM, then going back to LV was indeed risking his life. Spying 
on the maniac psycho wizard is risking your life. There's just no way it 
can't be. I know Voldemort is an idiot a lot of the time, but we can't 
remove all his teeth!:-)

> Dana:

> So at this moment it is suggested that Snape knew it was Draco's task
> to bring DEs in to the castle, Snape just did not know how he would
> manage it.

Magpie:
I think canon far more suggests that Snape had no reason to know. Draco's 
task is *not* to bring DEs into the castle. Draco's task is to kill 
Dumbledore. The Cabinet was Draco's secret plan to accomplish that fact, and 
he did not include Snape in it. So no, I don't think Snape had any reason to 
know about the DEs in Hogwarts at all, and just assumed his natural position 
as the most important DE once he got there. Snape did know about the task to 
kill Dumbledore, of course, and had vowed to do it if it looked like Draco 
would fail, or die himself. But I see no reason why Snape would have know 
about the DEs getting in until it happened, or that Draco was trying to do 
that. I don't even really know if DE!Snape would have wanted that plan to 
succeed if he knew about it.

I'll have to look at the canon for the real details, but I don't recall 
Snape knowing exactly what was happening. It seems like he just followed the 
action and the DEs. All the Order members were trying to get up the stairs 
before Snape got there. I remembered it as Snape just running towards the 
action as anyone could do.

Dana:
> And still we have to believe he was taken totally by surprise and was
> not able to find out what Draco was up to while again as stated above
> he is there within a second after Harry attacks Draco.

Magpie:
Is that really a problem? Draco was crying in the boys' room when that 
happened, a room open to anybody. He has reason to be following Draco, but 
so does Harry. Assuming that Snape actually figured out the part Harry 
couldn't is introducing a totally new idea to canon there. There's nothing 
Snape does that depends on his knowing what Draco is up to.  He could have 
run into the same problem as Harry--and JKR even thinks to introduce Draco's 
Occlumency in case anybody says "but why doesn't he just read his mind to 
find out what room he's in?"

> Dana:
> We don't see Snape risking his life because of the vow because he
> finishes the task to prevent himself from dying and again canon does
> not support the claim he killed DD for any other reason.

Magpie:
Taking a suicide pact is putting your life at risk. Even if Snape intended 
to kill Dumbledore himself (when he had to--he doesn't do it before then) 
he's still putting his life at risk. Anything could go wrong.  Taking a UV 
to eat lunch is risking your life. It's a nutty thing! If Snape had been 
teaching a class when Sectumsempra had him, he would have presumably died. 
Oops.

Dana:
> What we do see is Snape not doing anything to prevent Draco from
> performing his task and we see that Draco's attempts has already put
> two students at risk.

Magpie:
And also Dumbledore--he doesn't want Snape or anyone interfering with 
Draco's attempts except in very small ways.

Dana:
The moment Snape took the vow he made himself
> incapable of keeping anyone safe besides Draco and himself.

Magpie:
Yes and no--he does keep more people safe in the book. I agree he's tying 
himself down--given the Vow either Dumbledore or Snape will probably die. 
I'm not denying the Vow is a WTF? thing for Snape, but he is able to keep 
other people safe--even Dumbledore.

Dana:
> You might want to believe that saving Draco is worth more then the
> lives of other people (including DD) but I do not and him taking the
> vow does precisely that.

Magpie:
And Dumbledore's orders do that as well. DD says flat out that he's followed 
those priorities for Draco.

Dana:
> To me Snape was responsible because he knew Draco's task from the
> start and as Draco implies himself bringing DEs in to the castle was
> part of this task from the beginning too

Magpie:
Draco does not imply this. Canon implies--and never challenges--that Draco's 
task is to kill DD and Draco immediately begins trying to use the Cabinets 
to do it. There's no moment I can think of that suggests that Snape has 
anything to do with knowing that. On the contrary, the Cabinets are the 
important Ace up Draco's (and JKR's) sleeve.

Dana:
> If you get in a car while you have been drinking and you drive
> yourself into a tree and lose the use of your legs because of it then
> it was your own responsibility even if someone had lent you that car
> to make it possible for you to drive one while you were drunk, it is
> still your own choice to do so.

Magpie:
Is that somehow supposed to be Snape in the Prank? But he's not drinking and 
driving, he's following some kids in his class to see what they're up to, 
not knowing there's a monster at his school that they have magical immunity 
to--oh, and the boy he's following knows it and is trying to get him in 
there with the monster. Afawk he had no reason to think it was dangerous.

Surely that's not only an unreasonable thing to describe as Snape's "choice" 
of life-threatening danger, but why wouldn't the same apply to the Marauders 
getting expelled? If Snape had gotten them expelled they would actually be 
getting expelled for something they'd actually done, wouldn't they? So how 
come that's Snape's fault and not their own choice (to do something 
expellable) because they don't deserve to get expelled just for doing 
something that could get them expelled, yet Snape deserves to be killed or 
maimed for life because he tried to get them in trouble?

Really, imo, in both cases you have to identify the troublemaker. Yes, Snape 
was hoping to catch the Marauders doing something against the rules and 
probably get them detention (honestly, in this school it would take more 
than this to get someone expelled, as is proved in retrospect). But so, too, 
was Sirius taking action to bring Snape to the shack. All of them 
contributed to every situation. I don't think any of them deserved to die 
for it.

secretkeeper:

I don't see James' reply "just because he exists" as proof Snape
never did anything to cause these 'attacks'. To cool, popular
fifteen year old James, I think he found it sounded wittier to reply
in those terms instead of stating to Lily just yesterday Snape did
X, Y, and Z and that's why we are retaliating.

Magpie:
I agree. I imagine Ron and Harry might say the same thing in a similar 
situation about Malfoy. It doesn't have to mean "he's done nothing". It can 
also mean "he's done so many things I can't even begin to list them."


-m