Maraurders/he exists

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 168201

wynnleaf
I may be confusing my threads here, with several considering 
difficulties between Marauders and Snape, but here goes...

Several posters have used Snape's creation of the Sectumsempra spell 
as a clue or evidence of his culpability while in school.  The 
reasoning is that Snape said, based on seeing the effects of the 
cutting spell on Draco, that it was Dark Magic.  Therefore Snape's 
creation of a Dark Magic weapon "for enemies" is evidence of his 
Dark side.  

This is rather interesting.  

There are two times that Snape accused Harry of using Dark Magic.  
Anyone recall *both?*  One is of course when Snape finds Draco 
injured and Harry having used a cutting spell, which from the 
effects Snape immediately identifies as Dark.  We, the readers, 
later learn that it was *Snape's* spell, so Snape's identifying the 
spell as "Dark" makes him culpable since he created it.  

But earlier, in POA, Snape also accused Harry of using Dark Magic.  
Snape found Harry with a parchment in his hands which could, to use 
Arthur's words, "think for itself" including identifying the holder 
and insulting the holder knowing personal characteristics of the 
holder.  Snape also immediately identifies this object as clearly 
Dark.  If we use the same logic as Snape's identifying of the 
effects of the cutting spell as Dark, we would have to say that 
Snape's assessment is just as seriously and honestly given as it was 
with Sectumsempra.  Snape being a Dark Arts expert, we would have to 
believe his word on this just as much as his word on the cutting 
spell.  Right?  Sure, Lupin contradicts Snape in the POA scene, but 
since he was lying at the time to cover for Harry, we can't trust 
his comments at that moment.  

So the Map is just as likely then to be Dark Magic as Sectumsempra, 
at least as far as Snape's serious and honest assessment goes.

And the Map has several rather Dark characteristics -- it thinks for 
itself, it enables the holder to invade the privacy of anyone at 
Hogwarts (can anyone believe the Marauders wouldn't have used it to 
see what couples were up to?), it enables the holder to break both 
major and minor rules easily, and it is opened by a vow to do "no 
good." 

So if we are going to take Snape's word about the cutting spell he 
sees the effects of in HBP as being a Dark Magic spell, then I don't 
think we can legitimately discard his word that the parchment he 
held in his hands in POA and which could for itself, was Dark also.  

The net result is that Snape created the Sectumsempra spell as a 
teenager and he identifies that spell as Dark Magic.  The Marauders 
created the Marauders Map as teenagers and Snape also identified 
that as Dark Magic.  His attitude when making both accusations 
toward Harry is similar and he seems to be giving his serious and 
honest assessment.  I don't think it's a fair argument to say 
Snape's right about the cutting spell he saw on Draco, in believing 
Dark Magic was used to cause the injuries, but wrong about the 
parchment that can think for itself being Dark Magic.

> Neri:
> Well, Sirius does explain in OotP that even when Lily was actually
> dating James, she didn't know all about his vendetta with Snape, 
and I
> don't see why would Sirius lie about this. 

wynnleaf
Sirius made it clear that he was talking about 7th year, when he 
said that James made sure their attacks on Snape were done away from 
Lily's eyes.  By the way, James could not keep those attacks secret 
from her if a large portion were initiated by Snape - since 
presumably Snape had no reason to keep the attacks secret from 
Lily.  Therefore the fact that Lily didn't ever hear about the 
attacks is some evidence that Snape was not initiating them in 7th 
year, only James.

In any case, the attacks between the Marauders and Snape were much 
more public before 7th year, as Sirius made clear.  So obviously 
Lily *did* know about them before.   In fact, that's the whole point 
of what Sirius was getting at.  She knew about them for years, but 
didn't know about them after 6th year.  And yet she says, "what did 
he do to you?"

Neri
But I suspect Lily knows
> enough about Severus's reputation in this scene and doesn't care.

wynnleaf
If she knew that Snape's reputation gave James an excuse for his 
actions, why would she ask him "what's he done to you?"  

Neri
> There's no indication that Snape interests her at all here. She 
just
> wants so much to pick an argument with James... 

wynnleaf
There's a possibility you're correct in her primary object being to 
flirt with James through some sort of faked concern for James 
bullying another student.  If so, it's a terrible indictment of 
Lily, imo, to take advantage of someone else's misfortune in order 
to push a flirting agenda with their tormentor.

However, to go so far as to say "no indication that Snape interests 
her at all here," is going way too far when the whole point she's 
making is about James bullying behavior toward Snape.

> > Pippin:
> > Her blink shows she's taken aback by Snape's use of the 
> > M word, so it can hardly be something Snape's in the habit
> > of saying.
> 
> Neri:
> Or she could blink because she expects him to have the brain of 
hold
> on the M word for once while she's helping him out of trouble. And
> that single blink is the only sign that Lily is surprised at all. 

wynnleaf
I can't imagine Hermione being surprised at all if Draco called her 
a mudblood in such a situation, because she'd have heard it out of 
him enough already.  So Lily's surprise blink indicates that she 
didn't expect that response from Snape.  

But if Lily *wasn't* surprised, why did she even come to help if a 
completely expected response from Snape was going to make her leave 
him "in the lurch," so to speak?  A sort of inner thought of "I'm 
going to pretend to help him so I can have the opportunity to have a 
little confrontation with the guy I like, but then I'll leave as 
soon as Snape does the expected and makes a mean comment."  Wow, I 
certainly hope Lily's not *that* kind of girl!  Those types 
certainly do exist!  And they'd probably die for their children, 
too, since women of all types love their children.  But that just 
doesn't fit with other things we've heard about Lily.

Dana
In
> the next sentence she answers "coolly" and changes tack with ease.
> There's no surprised "I didn't think you're one of *those* 
Slytherins".

wynnleaf
I think the blink *was* the surprise.  What would you expect?  "Oh 
my gosh! I can't believe you said that!"  No, a blink is quite 
enough to show Lily's surprise.

> 
> > Pippin:
> > Lupin's statements about James's acquisition of the levicorpus
> > spell sound particularly disingenous. If Snape knew that James
> > had stolen the spell from him, how could Lupin not know? I
> > can't see any reason for Snape to be lying about that in the
> > midst of fleeing from Hogwarts, or for James to have concealed
> > it from his friends. It's the sort of thing he'd have bragged 
about. 
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> One problem with this argument: Snape never actually blames James 
of
> *stealing* his spell. He only blames him of "turning my inventions 
on
> me", which James could have easily done without any knowledge that 
the
> spell was originally Snape's invention. I can't remember a single 
clue
> in canon that James indeed stole the spell directly from Snape. 
> 
> Neri

wynnleaf
I agree that there's not necessarily strong evidence that James 
directly stole Levicorpus from Snape.  It was clearly a joke sort of 
spell that James could have picked up anywhere.  If Snape used it in 
the Slytherin common room, the spell could have traveled around the 
school and in 24 hours been the rage.  

The "revelation" that the spell the Marauders used against Snape in 
the Worst Memory scene was created by Snape neither makes that scene 
less terrible an action of the Marauders, nor makes Snape in any way 
a worse guy.  The spell isn't a bad spell.  Like many spells, it's 
the way you use it.  They used it conjunction with other spells to 
bully Snape.  Their actions were awful.  The spell wasn't.

We do not know that the spell with which Snape cuts James cheek in 
the Worst Memory scene is Sectumsempra.  It could be a precursor to 
Sectumsempra, or simply a smaller cutting spell.  So we don't even 
know whether it's dark.  

As regards why Snape created Sectumsempra, many assume that "for 
enemies" meant it was for offensive actions against anyone Snape 
disliked.  But the spell was written in the 6th year potions book 
and could have been created after the Shrieking Shack prank when 
Snape truly felt (rightly or wrongly) that his life was in danger 
and he needed a strong spell in case he was directly attacked with 
intent to kill.

wynnleaf