[HPforGrownups] Re: Further Notes on Literary Uses of Magic and Anti-Globalization/Stopper Death

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168223

>> Magpie:
>> I thought part of Betsy's point was that working "for good" was
>> important, but that it wasn't all there was to it. People can think
>> they are working for good or be working for good and still do
> things
>> wrong--and of course, deciding who's working for good and who's
>> working for evil, in the real world, sometimes depends on what side
>> you're on. It's probably not a good idea to just decide that
>> whatever X says is the right thing is right, especially if you
> don't
>> really know X, and yet there is an element of that here. From
>> Marietta's pov she's probably not doing what you're saying she's
>> doing.
> <SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> Well, yes, I agree with what you are saying RL wise. I do not
> necessarily agree about that in Potterverse. I always believed that
> JKR draws quite strong barriers between those working for good side
> and those working for bad side and that **she** gets to decide which
> side is good and which side is bad, you know?

Magpie:
Sure--but does her identifying the good side mean she's saying that her good 
side is above reproach and never makes a mistake or does anything wrong? It 
seems to me she does the opposite. James and Sirius seem very clearly on the 
good side to me, but I think she put them clearly in the wrong in the 
Pensieve. She even, I think, seems to have no problem with having them be 
bad *because* of their ideals, like by having James hate Snape for his 
interest in the Dark Arts and perhaps see that as justification for his own 
bullying.

So sure there is difference in things that the two characters are doing. 
It's not just that we would like Draco to change sides because he'd be 
coming to the good side, while we don't like Peter for changing sides 
because he was going to the bad side. The two of them are also doing 
different things. Peter was protecting his own skin, for instance, and 
letting his friends die to do it. If Draco had been able to take DD's offer, 
by contrast, he would be rejecting murder for glory while still caring about 
his family.

I think JKR has a very clear idea of the good and bad sides--but I think 
she's also very in control of what people are doing moment to moment and I'm 
not sure she thinks the good guys always have to be right. And even if she 
did think somebody was right or wrong, a reader could disagree. For 
instance, if JKR thought James was awesome in bullying James in the Pensieve 
because she hates Snape, it wouldn't become right just because it's her 
universe. Some things are always going to be subjective.


Alla:
> Have you read Martin's "Songs of Ice and Fire"?

Magpie:
I haven't--but people have recomended it to me too.

Alla:
>
> I believe that it is SO not the case in Potterverse, despite JKR
> greying some issues in OOP and HBP.
>
> I honestly believe that no matter how many mistakes good guys make,
> JKR does not intend to portray them as deserving same contempt as
> Voldemort and Co, even if they make pretty big mistakes, you know?

Magpie:
I don't think so either--but I don't think it always comes down to having 
the same contempt. In fact, when I think back on fandom discussions, 
ironically, most disagreements don't even come down to Voldemort's side vs. 
good guys, because the actual official Voldemort people don't have much of a 
part. Gryffindor vs. Slytherin is more common, I'd think--though it's also 
sometimes Gryffindor vs. Gryffindor. And though some people do absolutely 
hold the Gryffindors in contempt or consider them no better than the 
Slytherins, in my experience more often it's more like "The Slytherins are 
bad here, but here's why the Gryffindors aren't impressing me here."

Alla:
> I mean, why would I ever feel something for Lucius Malfoy, even if he
> loves his son?

Magpie:
Heh--well, I feel something for him. But I don't think he's good. I feel 
empathy for the mess he's gotten himself into, though I couldn't defend any 
of his actions. But that doesn't mean when I'm reading about another 
character I'm going to always compare him/her to Lucius in my head when 
judging his/her actions.

Alla:
> Do I think that JKR intends to forgive Lupin for those mistakes
> because he is on the **right** side?
>
> Yes, I totally do.
>
> So, I guess what I am trying to say in such long winded way that JKR
> does employ a double standard IMO and I see nothing bad with it "in
> Potterverse"

Magpie:
But is it really a double standard? Because I don't think Lupin's forgiven 
because he's on the right side. I think JKR forgives Lupin's mistakes 
because she understands what he did and why and ultimately finds them 
forgivable. It's hard to find a situation to contrast this with because in 
general the guys on Voldemort's side do bad, often unforgivable things they 
don't regret anyway. But to take an absurd example, I don't think Lupin 
would be forgiven if he had been molesting students during PoA because he 
was on the right side. Umbridge isn't a Death Eater. She isn't on 
Voldemort's side--the Ministry's position is against Voldemort. But she was 
a bad guy.

Alla:
> But do I think that JKR does not intend to judge Hermione as harshly
> as some other characters? Yes, I do, because I absolutely think that
> even if what she did was morally wrong ( and I do not, I just
> understand the argument), I think it is **nothing** in comparison to,
> let's say, planning assasination attempts.

Magpie:
Actually based on things I've read I think many people would be fine with 
Hermione planning an assassination attempt because she's on the right side. 
But I don't think the side she's on covers it. My feelings about Draco's 
assassination attempt and Hermione's hex are completely different because 
there's a lot more factors than just what side they were on.

Miles:
I do not like this decision of JKR, but I agree with your observation, at 
least concerning the young characters. But maybe, if you see the HP series 
as a bildungsroman, one part of becoming adults is that the teenage heroes 
will have to face the consequences of their questionable actions like the 
adult characters in the series already have to? Which would be one twist for 
the final book.

Magpie:
I agree. Though MWPP gives me hope. It seems like many in that generation 
are cursed by never getting over their adolescent challenges.

zanooda:

I'm not a native speaker either, so I won't even try to discuss what
meanings the word "stopper" can have, but I can tell you that it was
translated the same way into Russian. I wouldn't trust their
translators much, but in this case I don't blame them, because
English-Russian dictionaries give only one meaning of this word -
stopper (noun) means cork, stopper (verb) means to cork a bottle. So they 
(Germans as well as Russians) just translated it literally.

Magpie:
I've never thought of "stopper" in that sentence in English meaning anything 
other than this one--to cork a bottle. There is no word "to stopper" that 
just means to stop or cease in English. So "to stopper death" to me either 
means Snape is saying he can teach people how to put a cork in death (and so 
stop the flow) or put death in a bottle and put a cork in it.


-m