Maraurders/he exists

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 168261

> Pippin:
> Well, which is it, was Snape just another schoolyard kid, or was
> he the kid who knew more curses than half the seventh years,
> adults by WW standards,  when he got to Hogwarts? <snip>

Mike:
I thought I had given my answer. I'll try again.

I picture the Sevie v James dynamic quite parallel to Draco v Harry. 
Think back to the dueling club. Draco conjures a venomous snake with 
prompting from Snape. By the sixth year, the most we've seen Harry 
conjure has been water. And I don't think Snape is *that* good of a 
teacher. I think Draco knew many more spells than Harry did, in the 
early years, despite Ron's exhortations in PS/SS to the contrary. But 
Harry is able to hold his own because of his quick reflexes, even 
though he can only retaliate with a tickling charm.

Harry and Draco have a few dust-ups in the hallways, don't they? 
Probably not unlike James and Sevie. Do any of their other classmates 
seem scared of Draco? Say Ernie McMillan, or Zach Smith? It doesn't 
seem so to me. Neither do I think the other kids were scared of 
Severus in his schooldays. 

But neither Harry nor James would be wise to turn his back on Draco 
or Severus, imo. In fact, Draco got ferretized for taking a shot at 
Harry while Harry's back was turned. I bet if it had been Harry doing 
the ferretization of Draco he would have gotten quite a few laughs, 
just like James got with Severus. Of course, Moody scares the hell 
out of the kids, so they just observe in silence, until they get to 
lunch that is. :)

Even Dumbledore draws a parallel between Harry-Draco and James-
Severus. The **possible** difference *might* be that Draco has 
CrabbenGoyle for allies and Snape *may* have had more powerful allies 
in upper class Slytherins. <that enough opinion language? ;)>


> Pippin:
> I thought the point under discussion was whether JKR planned
> to repair the Marauders' tarnished image by showing
> that Snape had in some measure earned a drubbing by terrorizing
> the other kids. <snip>

Mike:
Not some nebulous *other* kids, and not "terrorizing". Specifically 
MWPP and probably moreso just the PP. And an ongoing and to be 
continued hexing war between these combatants. 

Yes, it is my hope that JKR explains more about the prank, and 
thereby clears up some of the motivations. I do not expect more about 
SWM to come out. I only said that one scene, labelled Snape's Worst 
Memory, does not comprise the whole of the ongoing battle between 
James and Severus. And we did not get to see Snape's Best Memory.


> Pippin:
> The slack of indicating that hexing people for fun was okay because
> it was cool and everyone was doing it.  

Mike:
OK, I understand that, but methinks you are using the wrong example 
when you refer to the "Frosty Christmas" conversation as proof. Lupin 
is already responding to Harry's question in the key of Half-Blood 
Prince. Lupin is explaining that just because James used it, that's 
no reason to believe that James invented it. Lots of people used it. 

He's not speaking to the "everybody was doing it, so it was OK for 
James". He's speaking to the "James didn't invent it and he's not the 
HBP". I see no excusing by Lupin. I don't even see him addressing the 
morality of using this hex. And this isn't a particularly egregious 
hex, either.


> Pippin:
> Reading carefully, JKR didn't  present one view of the Marauders
> in OOP and then start to reverse it in HBP. She's presented two 
> views all along. I don't know which will win out, but I can't
> believe that JKR is any happier with "well it was cool and 
> everybody was doing it" than I am. But I could be wrong.

Mike:
Good point on the dual views of the Marauders. But I don't see a lot 
of people saying it was OK for the Marauders because "everybody was 
doing it". I hear most people saying "the Marauders were the *only* 
ones doing it and it's not OK". 

I feel mightily outnumbered trying to point out that the Marauders 
surely *weren't* the only ones doing it, and that the memory was 
Snape's *Worst*. If we were to get Snape's *Best*, does anyone think 
we would see James getting the better of Severus? Dumbledore tells 
Harry the dynamic was not unlike that between him and Mr Malfoy. Does 
Harry always start the fights between himself and Draco? Different 
circumstances, I admit. But I certainly don't buy Angel!Severus.



> Pippin:
> <snipping some very good analysis, that I liked :)>
> 
> But taking  Harry's POV, it looks as if James and the 
> whole WW would have been better off if James had let Snape 
> meet his fate. Hands up, anyone who doesn't think *that* 
> is going to be reversed. 
> 
> I thought so.

Mike:
::Raising my hand (I think)::
Are you asking if the WW would have been better off without Snape's 
part in things? If that is the question, then my hand stays up. Snape 
doesn't deliver the prophesy, we don't get the murders of James and 
Lily and no "chosen one". (Canon as it stands now. Not necessarily my 
take on things, but that's for a different discussion)

So the wizarding world doesn't get a shortcut to ridding itself of 
Voldemort through the agony of one boy. Good! The adults and that 
damn Ministry has to get it's feces collated and get off their 
collective duffs to affect a strategy to defeat Voldemort. Since when 
should they be relying on one boy to save their bacon.

Of course, we have no story either. So thanks Snape, but I still hope 
you suffer horrible pain in your attempt to redeem yourself. And it 
won't matter to me because, if it's actually the case that you killed 
Dumbledore, then your are not redeemable, in my eyes. Even in war the 
reasons for *killing* your commanding officer are few and far 
between, and you didn't have one of those reasons. Period.

Oh, and if it turns out that you didn't kill Dumbledore... I still 
hope you suffer a great deal of pain... and we'll talk about the 
redemption part after. ;D
<In case you can't tell, these last four paragraphs were my opinions>
:D

Mike