[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's detention in HBP

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168339

 JW:
> It is said that there are three ways to conduct a debate: disagree
> over assumptions; disagree over logic; and sling mud.  Pippin, my
> intent is to utilize only the first two ways.
>
> First, I do not understand how a sadistic personality could be more
> noble than a non-sadistic personality.  Does this mean that the level
> of nobility is proportionate to the level of sadism? Would this mean
> that the two most noble RL people of the 20th century were Hitler and
> Stalin?  I must be completely misunderstanding your point.

Magpie:
Leaving aside whether Snape is or isn't sadistic, sure I think a sadistic 
person could be noble--hypothetically. Sadism is, I believe, getting 
pleasure (usually sexual pleasure) out of inflicting pain on others. If the 
person doesn't *act* on this feeling by hurting others, if they repress it, 
they could be noble--if they're repressing it because they know it's wrong, 
they're doing it for a good reason. Behaving in a sadistic way isn't 
noble--it would be a pleasure-seeking act. But a noble person with a 
sadistic streak could exist, especially if they struggled with it.

One problem in the HP-verse, imo, is that sadism is pretty common in the 
books to varying degrees.

jmwcfo:
>
> Further, I do not see how Snape can possibly treat Harry worse.  For
> example, on more than one occasion SS has demanded that HP be
> expelled, only to be over-ruled by DD or MM.

Magpie:
Oh, he could certainly treat him worse. As Pippin pointed out, other 
teachers have treated other students worse if you look at all the isolated 
incidents of teacher/student interaction. Snape hasn't turned Harry into a 
ferret and bounced him against a stone floor, or forced him to write with a 
razor-like quill over and over on his hand. I'd need to see the canon where 
Snape actually *demands* that Harry be expelled--I remember Snape saying 
once how he had no power to expel Harry therefore he couldn't do it. But 
then, Harry also says that Snape threatens to poison everyone to see if 
their antidotes work, which plenty of young readers know is an empty threat. 
I now can't remember McG's lines about Sectumsempra, but doesn't she say 
something like that Harry is lucky Snape's just giving him detention? I 
don't think Harry's fears of expulsion have always ever been realistic.

Pippin:
> Finally, SS is anything but egalitarian.  The books are filled with
> instances during which Snape obviously favors Slytherins over all
> other atudents, especially Gryffs.  Similarly, I am at a loss to find
> him treating any non-Slytherin with generosity, courtesy or nobility.

Magpie:
I don't think Pippin was disputing that. I think she was saying that if 
Snape is an actual sadist, then he's holding back, which might suggest he's 
struggling against his own bad nature to treat Harry better than he wants to 
treat him.

Pippin:
> I would also disagree with the logic behind your comparisons of Snape
> to other professors.  MM seems to be tough but fair and
> compassionate, and protects Gryffs against the worst of Snape's
> outrages.  Professor Moody is a sadistic killer in disguise.
> Lockhart is an incompetent fraud, and a criminal for his treatment of
> other wizards.  Slughorn's faults are relatively mild, being merely a
> manipulator and politician (in the broad sense, not as a holder of
> public office).

Magpie:
I believe the comparisons were there only to show the kinds of punishments 
that teachers have given in canon, only to show that Snape isn't always 
operating at that level of punishment. He could go further, iow. (And with 
Slughorn I believe she was just pointing out that his favoritism is even 
more blatant and consistent than Snape's.) Crouch, Lockhart and Umbridge are 
also teachers when they do the things they do.

-m