First lesson again WAS: Re: Harry's detention in HBP

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 168342

Alla:
> 
> I snipped a lot of stuff about the **old days**, LOL, but I have to 
> say if in the old days raising eyebrows meant getting what Snape 
did 
> to him, personally I am very glad old days are gone :)

Ceridwen:
Ah, the old days.  *sigh*  "Reading and writing and arithmetic, 
taught to the tune of a hickory stick..."

Okay, I'll stop singing, everyone uncover your ears!  ;)

The thing about raised eyebrows is that, when done derisively, they 
lead to snickering, which leads both to talking and to disrespect in 
the class.  *Not* in every instance, as I mentioned: the raised 
eyebrows can show being impressed, or at least amazed.

I did get the feeling that Ron and Harry were in part wondering about 
Mr. Theater there, strutting his fifteen minutes of their attention 
on his stage.  But, at least in Harry's POV, it didn't reach the 
level of derision that I've seen in class.  There were these two boys 
in my sixth grade class, twelve years old both of them...

Ah, but we won't go there.  *sigh*  *humming*

Alla:
> I mentioned to you before that I also do not come from very liberal 
> school system in a sense that students would not be allowed to get 
> away with from what I see students in school are allowed to get 
away 
> with here in US these days. Oh, when I say **see** I do not see 
> personally, I only hear stories, I must say.

Ceridwen:
Hee!  Yes, audit a day course at your local college sometime.  The 
level of disrespect from students just out of high school is amazing.

Hogwarts seems to be a strange dichotomy, to me.  It's very 
progressive in some ways, certainly contrasted to the ways it seems 
old-fashioned.

Alla:
> But punishing student for facial movement I find beyond ridiculous, 
> sorry. I also must say that I never saw that Harry even trying to 
> talk back to Snape, I saw the kid honestly not knowing the answer 
and 
> honestly answering that here is the student who knows such answer. 
> Again IMO.

Ceridwen:
I saw the whole incident as a comedy of misunderstandings.  Harry 
honestly was amazed about Snape's presentation, raising his eyebrows, 
which Snape read (based on his history with James I think) as 
derision.  Which prompted him to come down on Harry, who didn't 
realize he'd done anything to get Snape's back up.  He answers that 
he doesn't know, which to Snape comes off as cheeky, so Snape asks 
another question.  Harry gets annoyed, not understanding Snape's 
viewpoint, and answers in perhaps a more annoyed tone.  And so on.

Alla:
> I agree though that Harry probably did not have the best school 
> experiences in his muggle days and hoped for fairer teacher here. 
> Speculating obviously. Ooops.

Ceridwen:
I don't know what Harry hoped for from Hogwarts.  A school is a 
school, after all, and teachers and others in authority might still 
not have the power to control bullying students.

(Or, they might not be accorded the power.  I know that in some 
areas, teachers are prevented from any form of discipline, and even a 
sharp rebuke, when it isn't laughed away, could possibly be 
prosecuted.  This would be the school system Harry came from, if 
messaging with friends in Britain has given me the correct 
impression.  British posters are welcome to either confirm or 
deny.  :D)

Taking from other recent threads, the WW at first seems to be a 
magical place, with wands and dragons and unicorns and powerful 
magicians.  It starts out in PS/SS as a sort of wonderland.  But the 
more Harry learns about it, the more it's just a magical version of a 
mundane world.  As Scrimgeour said to the Muggle Minister, they can't 
just use magic go get rid of Voldemort, because Voldemort has magic, 
too.  The witches and wizards of the WW are as equal when pitte 
against each other as the Muggles in the Muggle world.

And, I think Harry begins to understand this from the beginning.  We 
still have the magical aura, a fairy tale feeling, at least through 
CoS, in my opinion.  But, things begin to clunk instead of tinkle 
from the beginning.  School books and uniforms still have to be 
bought, house points must be earned - in that way the WW is no more 
fanciful than Real Life.

Tangent:  I don't think the Dursleys ever bothered even trying to 
explain adults to Harry.  I don't think they explained any possible 
reasons for discipline, except, maybe, that *Harry* deserved it.  A 
freak, an oddity, what have you.  Their own actions would definitely 
be called into question by any sort of reasonable explanation for 
discipline!  Why bother?

So I do think that Harry came to Hogwarts with a skewed vision of 
right and wrong in the school setting.  All he knew was students 
complaining that a teacher wasn't fair.  Since the Dursleys were 
definitely not fair, this resonated with him, and he did get off on 
the wrong foot.  It wasn't his fault, he had no concerned guardians 
explaining things to him.

But, that's why I see that exchance in the first Potions class as 
more of a compounding of misunderstandings than of deliberate 
misconduct on either Harry's or Snape's part.

And, maybe that's where Dumbledore's hands-off policy fell down.

Ceridwen, not ending the tangent, because she ended with it.