Snape as Neville's teacher (was:Re: Snape as Noble teacher...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 168377

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > I *still* think Snape *does* work as a teacher for Neville in a 
> > particularly weak subject.
> > <snip>
 
> >>Dana:
> Really? And both Lupin and Harry did not get further with Neville   
> in just one lesson...<snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, exactly.  Lupin does not do as good of a job teaching Neville as 
Snape does, IMO.  Or at the least, Lupin is *as equal* to the task of 
teaching Neville as Snape is.  I base that on the fact that Neville 
is *still* considered the DADA screw up in OotP.  No one wants to 
partner with him, forcing Harry to take him on one on one.

And I will point out that Harry *doesn't* teach Neville everything he 
needs to know about DADA in "just one lesson".  Neville, as per 
canon, works his butt off.  And it's suggested that he does so 
because of Bellatrix and his parents. 

Of course I don't want to take away from Harry's teaching ability.  I 
do think Harry shows some skill in this area and I admire his 
patience and willingness to work with Neville.  I just don't think 
Snape had an option of working that way with Neville.  It goes too 
much against Snape's personality, or hang ups.

> >>Dana:
> I want to add this quote from canon that Neville did not have to    
> have a good grade for potions to pass through to the next year. So 
> there is no canon proof that Snape's teaching method's made Neville 
> get good enough marks in potions and not just fail them year in and 
> out. He just got enough good grades in other subjects to make it   
> through the years.
> Pg: 222 Uked Paperback; chapter: 17
> Even Neville scraped through, his good Herbology mark making up for
> his abysmal potions mark.
> End quote canon.
> Sorry for got to add the quote if from PS/SS.

Betsy Hp:
This will be a case of toma"toe" / toma"tah" I'm afraid.  You see 
this quote regarding Neville's horrible potions grade as proof that a 
child can fail basic courses at Hogwarts and still pass into their 
next year.

I see it as proof that Neville was having serious problems and 
there's absolute reason for Snape to take him under hand.  And with 
the addition of the very next sentence:

"They had hoped that Goyle, who was almost as stupid as he was mean, 
might be thrown out, but he had passed, too." [SS scholastic p.307]

There's enough of a suggestion in my mind that a failure means being 
left behind or expelled.  Added onto the fact that an "abysmal" does 
not always mean "failing", it could well be that a certain grade 
point average is expected as well.  Which makes Hogwarts stricter 
rather than looser and puts Neville at even more of a disadvantage.  
IMO, anyway.

> >>Dana:
> <snip>
> Canon never stated Neville passed on potions, he actually failed in
> his first year and probably every year after that and we still do   
> not see him perform decent in the 5th year, so there is actually no 
> proof at all that Snape's teaching methods worked for Neville.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
That Neville stayed with the Trio's class is enough to suggest to me 
that Neville passed potions.  And as I pointed out, canon *doesn't* 
state that Neville out and out *failed* potions in his first year.

I still cling to the dog that didn't bark. <g>  Neville's potions 
stopped exploding so spectacularly after his crisis year in PoA.

> >>Dana:
> I find your reaction very typical because now it has suddenly      
> nothing to do with Snape bullying Neville that Neville was bad in   
> potions, no it was because Neville was just bad at the subject.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'm not Ceridwen, but since I do agree with this POV, I'll speak up 
here.  Neville is bad in potions.  That is a fact of canon and it's 
his potion that first draws Snape's attention.  Snape's "bullying" 
had nothing to do with it.  And in fact, I personally think 
Snape's "bullying" is what drags Neville to a place where he's able 
to function at a semi-decent level in Potions.

I put "bullying" in quotes because while I do think Snape's 
methodolgy involved a lot of getting into Neville's face and riding 
him through each class and detention, I don't think Snape was doing 
so for empty reasons of personal enjoyment.  Which is what can 
sometimes be implied with that particular word.

> >>Dana:
> Neville was bad at transfiguration too but he still squeezed an
> acceptable out of this OWL. Potion OWL are not mentioned by
> McGonagall and Neville did not get to pass on to NEWT level potions
> now even that Snape was no longer the teacher but McGonagall not   
> even mentions his grade so you can be pretty sure that he got less 
> then an acceptable on that one.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Um, not really.  I imagine Neville could have received the very same 
grade in Potions that he received in Transfiguration.  Slughorn, like 
McGonagall, wasn't taking anything below an E.  Though honestly, for 
all we know Neville got an E but didn't want to continue in Potions.  
(And grr that JKR didn't share that grade. ::pouts::  I suppose it 
goes towards keeping Snape ambiguous. <g>)

> >>Dana:
> To me it is actually very illogical for Neville to be bad at potions
> because the kid is great with Herbology and he does very well in
> charms (with an Exceeding Expectations on his OWL). 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Actually, in the WW herbology seems more connected to CoMC.  How did 
Neville do in that?  I'd add that a lot of potions had animal bits as 
their ingredients, so there's not as strong a Potions to Herbology 
connection as one might at first think.  (Plus, not all farmers make 
good cooks.  Just saying. <g>)

> >>Dana:
> No, probably not it was just a coincidence that Neville's boggart   
> turned in to Snape, he wasn't really scared of Snape because his   
> teaching methods were so noble how could they possibly cause so    
> much anxiety that a kid fails because of them.

Betsy Hp:
Honestly, I think Snape was Neville's boggart because Snape did not 
allow Neville to safely stew in his familiar "I'm such a failure and 
I suck at magic" that his family had long ago stuck him in.

I know Neville would have prefered for Snape to leave him alone and 
let him fail in peace.  But Snape *is* too noble for that.  (Or at 
least, I think Snape hates failing at anything, including teaching.)  
So Snape dragged Neville, kicking and screaming, through his Potions 
class and didn't let him go until he had a basic grasp of the subject.

And being faced with a man who would *not* accept failure was, I'm 
sure, terrifying for Neville.  But I honestly think it was good for 
Neville to get through it.

> >>Dana:
> <snip>...what a noble guy that Snape to pick on kids that both lost 
> their parents at a young age.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Snape has never expressed any personal interest in Neville's 
history.  As far as I can see it's a purely professional relationship 
between those two.

> >>Dana:
> <snip>
> It is Snape who emphasis Harry's celebrity status and nothing Harry
> did.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree that Harry doesn't emphasize his own celebrity.  But it 
wasn't Snape who caused the Gryffindor table to cheer, "We got 
Potter, we got Potter!" at Harry's Sorting.  And it wasn't Snape who 
caused Flitwick to faint at the sight of Harry Potter in his 
classroom.  Snape's worries weren't formed in a vacuum.

Betsy Hp (standing up for Snape as a teacher since... a while? <g>)