Did Snape know Draco's task in Spinner's End/Snape as Neville's teacher

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168411

> Miles:
> Where do you read this in the book? That Narcissa is just about to 
tell the
> whole story? I don't read it:
> 
> "Narcissa continued (...): 'He wishes none to know of the plan. It 
is ...
> very secret. But -'
> 'If he has forbidden it, you ought not to speak,' said Snape at 
once." (HBP,
> Spinner's End)
> 
> My reading: What Narcissa is about to say is, WHY she wants to 
speak about
> the plan. How she fears for Draco, how lonely she is, whatever. 
She did not
> start to speak about the plan, she speaks about Voldemort, his 
orders, and
> why she thinks she must disobey. 

Magpie:
I read the "But..." as "He wishes none to know the plan. He has 
forbidden us to speak of it. But...[I'm a-gonna speak to you of 
it."] Even if I'm wrong and she was really, as you say, just going 
to talk about why she wants to speak of it, she's still going to 
speak of it. So I need a good reason for Snape to stop her. I could 
certainly by him pretending he knows in order to get her to be more 
open, but that's not what he does. He shuts her up without it 
following it up with getting her to speak freely about the plot.  
 
> > Magpie:
> > Maybe it looks good for him to take LV's
> > side and remind her she's not supposed to talk, but not if the
> > alternative is making a suicide pact to do the thing instead 
(which
> > is going against LV more than allowing Narcissa to shoot off her
> > mouth)--a thing Snape never succeeds in finding out about in the
> > scene anyway.
> 
> Miles:
> You know about the following Vow because you read the book before. 
Since JKR
> didn't make Snape a Seer, he possibly couldn't know of the Vow 
that follows,
> so it is not a valid argument concerning Snape's success or defeat 
in this
> scene.
> When I read this scene for the very first time, I didn't doubt a 
second that
> Snape did *not* know anything about the plan - simply because he 
never
> mentions anything about it.

Magpie:
I don't see what you mean. Of course at that moment Snape has no way 
of knowing yet that he's going to take the Vow, but if the point is 
that Snape doesn't know what the task is and is trying to find out, 
his behavior in the scene doesn't make sense to me. Where is he 
trying to find out the task? 

> Magpie:
> > If Snape has no idea what he's talking about lines like "I 
believe
> > he means me to do it in the end" are just empty bluffing for him,
> > and also, we're robbed of the terrible moment when Snape realizes
> > just what he's stupidly agreed to do.
> 
> Miles:
> You lost me. I simply do not see why this scene should be 
worthless with a
> bluffing Snape, and great with Snape knowing everything?

Magpie:
Because bluffing Snape is just that--bluffing. He's treading water 
throughout the scene (and not even, that I can see, aggressively 
getting information out of them). A Snape that knows the task is 
actually vowing to kill Dumbledore. Bluffing!Snape doesn't know what 
he's vowing or doing. When bluffing!Snape says "he means me to do it 
in the end" he's just speaking vaguely, because he doesn't really 
know what's going on. 
 
> Magpie:
> > That presumably happens
> > offscreen because by the time they get to school he and 
Dumbledore
> > both know what Draco's supposed to do with no help from the UV 
that
> > we see. So there's no storyline, that I can see, about Snape's
> > reaction to what he's accidentally done.
> 
> Miles:
> The dialogue between Snape and Dumbledore, overheard by Hagrid 
(AFAIR), is
> not that very reaction? I thought so, following the storyline I 
see as a
> bright red thread through the book.

Magpie:
I don't see how it's a reaction. It's months after the fact when 
Snape has presumably known for a while, and how does Snape saying 
Dumbledore takes too much for granted (iirc) directly show that 
Snape made a huge mistake in Vowing to kill him? What did Snape 
think he was Vowing to do, I wonder? If he thought he was being 
expected to kidnap Harry I think we'd get some reference to that. 
(And if he was supposed to kill Harry...why'd Snape agree to that?) 
I'd think a Snape who'd accidentally doomed himself to commit murder 
would be driven by that mistake and we'd see that emotional arc. It 
would lead to more than months later saying that Dumbledore takes 
too much for granted if he expects Snape to go through with it.
> 
> Magpie:
> > Also since it was clear to
> > me in Spinner's End what Draco was supposed to do it's hard for 
me
> > to believe Snape couldn't figure it out too--Narcissa gives him 
some
> > pretty big hints.
> 
> Miles:
> Which ones? I didn't figure out what the task was. I did later, 
when the
> assassination attempts failed, but reading Spinner's End, there 
were many
> alternatives, like killing Harry, or kidnapping him. Snape is not 
a Seer,
> and he didn't get a copy of JKR's HBP, he only wrote his own one.

Magpie:
I would think Snape would have more chance of figuring it out than I 
did, since he knew Voldemort. When Narcissa said "Even the Dark Lord 
himself..." it seemed like yeah, obviously that's killing 
Dumbledore. He has kidnapped Harry, and Snape knows Voldemort's 
going to want to do kill Harry himself. Even if Snape hadn't been as 
sure as I was, surely it would have seemed like an obvious choice. 
And a bad idea to vow to do anything unknown for Voldemort.
 
> Magpie:
> > So for me, the reason everyone talks around the plan is because 
JKR
> > is hiding it from the reader. Snape's own dialogue doesn't seem 
to
> > show a man fishing for information.
> 
> Miles:
> It does in my reading. And the crux you try to point out in canon 
IMO shows
> if anything, the opposite.

Magpie:
So where does it show Snape fishing for information in your reading? 
I don't have time to go through it now, but where is Snape leading 
the women to talk about the task at all? (Which they never do?) All 
I remember him doing is talking himself and then agreeing to do the 
task upon pain of death, all without ever getting any closer to 
anyone saying what the task is than ever. Then there's no arc that I 
can see about a man who's made a big mistake. (This would be like 
the Prophecy II for Snape, I'd think, if this is what he did.)

Alla:

He had whole year in DADA with Harry. Of course his confidence
increased, I think his confidence is massively increased in general,
so I am not surprised that he has no troubles with Snape, but no, I
do not think you lose anything if Snape is the one who is mistreating
Neville and Neville would have much less troubles otherwise. I mean
that all depends on how you see it I guess.

Magpie:
I didn't say Snape wasn't the one mistreating Neville--obviously 
Neville isn't mistreating Snape. I'm saying that Neville's own 
problems are also presented on their own as coming from Neville. 
Their two personalities are in play, imo.

-m