[HPforGrownups] Re: Did Snape know Draco's task in Spinner's End/Snape as Neville's teacher

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168422


>> Magpie:
>> I read the "But..." as "He wishes none to know the plan. He has
>> forbidden us to speak of it. But...[I'm a-gonna speak to you of
>> it."] Even if I'm wrong and she was really, as you say, just going
>> to talk about why she wants to speak of it, she's still going to
>> speak of it. So I need a good reason for Snape to stop her. I could
>> certainly by him pretending he knows in order to get her to be more
>> open, but that's not what he does. He shuts her up without it
>> following it up with getting her to speak freely about the plot.
>
> Miles:
> I think he has a very good reason to interrupt. He looks out of the window
> that very moment, right? That's the point - there are listeners. Known 
> ones
> (Bellatrix), possible ones (Peter), and theoretical ones (people listening
> outside the house). Just take Bellatrix - to have her listen to Narcissa
> explaining the plot would be very dangerous. ]

Magpie:
I would think taking an Unbreakable Vow that goes against LV's wishes would 
also be dangerous, but he does that. My point is, if he's trying to fish for 
information about what the task is, I don't see where's doing that--and 
based on what you say below, neither do you. I have no problem with him 
shutting Narcissa up in the scene in order to look loyal to LV--but then, I 
think he knows what the task is, so it's not a problem for him. He's gotten 
rid of Peter, but I don't understand why it's a bad idea for Narcissa to 
speak about the plan in front of Bellatrix, since Bellatrix seems to know it 
as well.

Miles:
She might not sell her own
> sister easily, but it would be  not OOC for her. She hates and distrusts
> Snape, and if he would be part of a betrayal on LV's orders - well?
> Considering that, and considering that Snape is really fond of his own
> intellect, he might think it would be less dangerous to just fish for the
> information without showing that he does not have it.

Magpie:
I have no problem believing that Snape would fish for information. But he 
doesn't fish for information, so that doesn't seem to be what he's doing.

Miles:
Plus the chance to
> make Draco tell him all about it - Snape might think that this way is a 
> bit
> more complicated, but less dangerous.

Magpie:
Not if he takes a suicide pact. I mean, sure if Snape didn't know what the 
task was he might have logically thought he would find out from Draco (it 
turns out he can't, but he wouldn't know that yet). But then why take a UV? 
He doesn't have to do *anything* in the scene if that's his plan. He just 
has to wait until school starts and have a chat with his favorite student. 
It seems odd to say he can't get the information from Narcissa who's come 
especially to give him the information, because it's less dangerous to get 
it from Draco, and then throw in the UV (we never learn how he did find out 
the information).


>> Magpie:
>> Because bluffing Snape is just that--bluffing. He's treading water
>> throughout the scene (and not even, that I can see, aggressively
>> getting information out of them).
>
> Miles:
> As explained above, it would be dangerous to aggressively get information 
> he
> is not allowed to have. Bellatrix won't forget.

Magpie:
So the scenes about getting information, but it's also too dangerous to go 
after the information...so what's he doing? And why is Bellatrix a threat at 
all? She's already in disgrace. The Vow seems more dangerous than any threat 
she poses herself. Isn't the whole point of Snape saying that he knows 
what's going on already a way to make it okay for information to be spoken? 
If Snape's claimed to have the information, it's no longer information he's 
not allowed to have as far as they're concerned. I don't even see why he'd 
be in trouble with LV, since it's Bellatrix and her sister who came over to 
tell it to him.

> Miles:
> Knowing!Snape is most probably ESE!Snape, right? Well, I really doubt JKR
> wants to answer this question in Spinner's End.
> Bluffing!Snape could be part of a personal tragedy, if he is DDM!Snape, 
> and
> it fits to ESE!Snape as well - and best for OFH!Snape.

Magpie:
I don't think Knowing!Snape's loyalties are known yet. I, personally, think 
Snape is both Knowing and DDM.

>
>> Magpie:
>> I don't see how it's a reaction. It's months after the fact when
>> Snape has presumably known for a while, and how does Snape saying
>> Dumbledore takes too much for granted (iirc) directly show that
>> Snape made a huge mistake in Vowing to kill him? What did Snape
>> think he was Vowing to do, I wonder?
>
> Miles:
> How could he deny the Vow in the moment he accepts to make it? If he would
> deny it in this very situation, Bellatrix would be a deathly threat to him
> in the future. Narcissa would not trust him anymore, Draco would be most
> probably lost. He manoeuvred himself into a dead end - into Spinner's End,
> no escape possible but the only open way left - the Vow. He might think 
> that
> it could be harmless when he started to make it, but had no chance to deny
> the last and fatal part of it.

Mapgie:
I don't understand...what do you mean "deny the Vow the moment he accepts 
it" and what does that have to do with the conversation in the woods? I 
don't think Snape refusing the Vow would make Bellatrix more deadly or more 
of an enemy, or make Narcissa suddenly a problem or lose Draco. Why would 
it? It's the Blacks in this scene who need something from Snape, as far as 
they know, not the other way around. He could throw them out on their butts 
any time he wants.

Also, by its very nature the vow is deadly, not harmless.Some think that 
once the Vow begins you have to agree to everything anyone might say, but of 
course we don't have exact canon on how they work. I think Snape could have 
refused to take the Vow or refused the third part with little threat to 
himself. After all, LV wants Draco to do the deed. I don't think DE!Snape 
would be in danger from refusing a Vow demanded by a not-so-favored DE and 
the wife of a not-so-favored who's loyalties are compromised.

In my reading, Snape had some reason for taking the Vow that I don't yet 
know. If he's fishing for information, the Vow has nothing to do with that. 
All it does is make it all the more important that he get the information 
later. Snape seems to be the one in control of the situation until he 
intentionally puts himself under the Vow. There seems no reason he has to 
take the Vow to protect himself from these two women, who are both so 
lacking in power in the scene.

> Miles:
> Voldemort tried to kidnap Harry, but he failed - Harry escaped. "Even the
> Dark Lord himself..."

Magpie:
Barty Crouch did exactly this in GoF--he kidnapped Harry no problem, so I 
don't think it would be said never to have been done.

Miles:
> Voldemort tried to kill Harry three times - but he failed. "Even the Dark
> Lord himself..."
> Maybe Voldemort tried to steal something from Hogwarts, but failed?
> Impossible? Not at all.

Magpie:
If Snape thought this might be what Draco was supposed to do, why did he 
take a chance on Vowing to do it himself?

To me, Snape's line "he means me to do it in the end" has more meaning if 
Snape knows what's going on. It makes sense that Voldemort would want him to 
kill Dumbledore in the end, due to the relationship Snape's had with him.

-m