Snape as Neville's teacher (was:Re: Snape as Noble teache...

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 168432


Betsy Hp wrote:
> Yup!  <g> He's already got the class doing a practical lesson on the 
> very  first day of Potions (making good use of classroom time) and 
> he's moving  around the class, checking on everyone's work and 
> correcting those that need  correcting. Seems like good teaching to 
> me.
>  
> Sandy responds:
> Checking and correcting everyone's work except Neville's it would 
seem. How did he miss Neville?

Carol responds:

Snape could not have anticipated that Neville would melt Seamus's
cauldron. Not even Crabbe and Goyle, dunderheads though they
apparently are, has ever melted a cauldron, so far as we know, much
less someone else's. Snape didn't know his students yet, and he was
checking everyone's potions, not knowing who had an aptitude for the
subject and who didn't. Draco was doing it right and was consequently
praised. Neville, presumably, was doing it wrong, but Snape at that
moment was examining Draco's stewed slugs, pointing out that they'd
been done correctly, when "clouds of acid green smoke and a loud
hissing filled the dungeon. Neville had somehow managed to melt
Seaumus's cauldron into a twisted blob, and their potion was seeping
across the stone floor, burning holes in people's shoes" (159). 

Notice that the first thing Snape does is to "clear. . . the spilled
potion away with one wave of his wand." The next thing he does is to
tell Neville what he did wrong and then order Seamus to take Neville
to the hospital wing. *Of course* Snape is angry. Any teacher would
be. This is a simple potion that a brand-new student ought to be able
to concoct. No one else, even though they're all as inexperienced as
Neville, is melting cauldrons and endangering fellow students. Snape
takes the situation in hand quite effectively, IMO. True, no RL
teacher in these postmodern times would dare to call a student an
"idiot boy," but the WW operates by different rules. (Karkaroff later
calls a boy "disgusting" fo dribbling food down his robes, and, IIRC,
even Flitwick makes Seamus write that he's a wizard, not a baboon,
when his spell carelessly hits Flitwick himself.) And carelessness in
 Potions class really is, if not idiotic, at least dangerous and
therefore irresponsible. Imagine how Seamus felt seeing his cauldron
melted into a blob. (I do wonder, BTW, what happens to all the
cauldrons Neville melts. Does snape restore them or replace them?) The
point docking is markedly unfair, but it's only one point, and JKR is
setting Snape us as her pseudovillain for the book. As I see it, Snape
handles the situation quite well for a teacher with an acerbic
personality and a chip on his shoulder.

> Betsy  Hp:
> I don't doubt that Draco is doing an excellent job. And, as we've
seen in HBP, Draco responds well to praise, and may well need it more
 than Hermione. 
>  
>  
> Sandy responds:
> Hermione is as insecure as they come and needs the praise every bit
 as much as Draco does. Have you forgotten what her boggart is? <snip>
>  
Carol:
Chances are that Hermione is following directions; if so, she's at
least not being criticized. (The narrator's remark that Snape is
criticizing everyone except Draco is Harry's perception, but it does
indicate that he's criticizing Slytherins as well as Gryffindors.) We
don't see him reacting to Hermione's potion because he apparently
hasn't yet reached their table when the accident happens. As for
Hermione's Boggart, no one even sees it until she fails that part of
her exam because Lupin doesn't give her a chance to repel it in class,
and Boggarts don't appear until PoA. How is Snape, who has never seen
Hermione before, supposed to know what her Boggart is? All he knows is
that she's already shown herself to be "an insufferable know-it-all."
(The students hold the same view of her, as we see in PoA.) In any
case, I'll grant you that snape is not concerned with his students'
psyches. He's concerned with their learning the subject, following
directions, and not endangering fellow students with their
carelessness. The "promote students' self-esteem" educational
philosophy is fairly new and has not reached the WW yet (fortunately
for them, considering the attitudes it produces in students--and I
speak from experience). Yes, "idiot boy" was meant to be an insult,
but the point of yelling at a kid, as any parent knows, is to prevent
him from making the same mistake again. Mrs. Weasley and Neville's
gran employ the same disciplinary philosophy when they send Howlers to
Ron and Neville, respectively. No, it's not effective for most kids,
but what adult wouldn't yell at a kid for, say, setting fire to the
carpet because of a carelessly performed experiment with his chemistry
set?

Sandy:
> Oy! I honestly don't understand this at all. Sexy? <snip> I am
amazed at the number of intelligent, well-educated women  on this list
who, if Snape were a *real* person, would be in love and lust with 
him and would fall straight into bed with him when they wouldn't have
two  words for the clean-cut guy who lives next door. Even JKR has
given some attention to this phenomenon. His physical description
alone is a turn off, but  how in the world can anyone be turned on by
someone so mean and hateful? I will  admit that he is mysterious and
intriguing, but sexy?!
> 
Carol:
Thanks for the concession, Sandy. For some of us, "mysterious and
intriguing" *is* sexy. As for the physical description, I think we
need to look at Snape as described in "Spinner's End," where the Harry
filter is removed, to get an objective desription. Still sallow, still
black-eyed, still with curtains of long black hair on each side of his
face, but the greasiness, the yellow teeth, even the large hooked nose
are not mentioned, leading me to believe that these features are
exaggerated in Harry's mind (though, granted, he does seem to have had
greasy hair as a teenager. So did I). Surely, Narcissa wouldn't take
his hands in hers and kiss them if he were utterly repugnant. And his
intelligence, sharp wit, and power (he appears to be the third most
powerful wizard in the books) are appealing to many readers, as is the
way he sweeps out of a room with his black cloak billowing behind him
(like a character in a gothic novel). I'm not trying to convince you
that he's sexy, just trying to explain his appeal to readers like me
who can't get enough of him.

Sandy responds:
> I have yet to use the word *evil* in this thread. Read my
description in my next paragraph and you will not see the word evil
anywhere. As you say, only DH  will answer the question of whether
Snape is evil or not. My argument, especially in this thread, is not
that he is evil, but that he is mean, nasty, hateful, spiteful,
vindictive, totally abusive and unfair to Harry, and that  there is
nothing good or noble about him, especially his teaching method. What
few good qualities he has are totally over-ruled and overwhelmed by
the bad in  him. IMO, there is absolutely nothing likeable about him,
much less lovable.

Carol responds:
I guess you're using "evil" to mean on Voldemort's side. To me, "mean,
nasty, hateful, spiteful, vindictive, totally abusive and unfair" with
"nothing good or noble about him" comes pretty close to evil. I would
say "sarcastic and occasionally unfair but highly courageous and loyal
to Dumbledore." And surely, saving Harry's life or attempting to on at
least three occasions and saving Draco's life, thereby preventing
Harry from becoming a killer, constitutes something good. Likeable,
perhaps not, from your perspective. And I don't think anyone, even
those who consider him sexy, has ever called him loveable. Speaking
only for myself, his most admirable quality seems to be his physical
and moral courage, showing his Dark Mark to Fudge to convince him that
Voldemort is back, facing torture and even death to return to
Voldemort as a spy on DD's orders, and so forth. Of course, if he
turns out to be ESE! or OFH!, I'll have to rethink my position. :-)

> Sandy responds:
> My dislike for Snape has nothing to do with where his loyalties lie,
they are based strictly upon his attitude and actions, therefore, if
he does turn out to be on the good side, my feelings will be no
different; I still won't like him.

Carol:
Yes, feelings are feelings, and no amount of intellectual
understanding can change them. I wish I could like James Potter and
Sirius Black, but I can't stand their conduct in Snape's Worst memroy,
and it sets my teeth on edge every time Black calls Snape Snivellus.
We can't help our feelings, and I don't think anyone is asking you to
like him. I might as well try to persuade you to like caviar if you
detest it.

Sandy:
> Despite not using these tactics I still believe Snape hates Neville.
It could be that he perceives Neville as being weak, or it could be
that he sees  similarities  to his self when he was Neville's age.
<snip> Regardless of what the reason, I think there can be no doubt
that Snape either hates, or at least highly dislikes  Neville. Not, of
course, to the same degree he despises Harry.

Carol responds:

I think what he despises is weakness and incompetence. In Neville's
case, it apparently has to do solely with his endangering fellow
students in Potions and his continued failure to follow directions.
"What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" he asks in
PoA, the last book in which we see him specifically picking on
Neville. In OoP, he thinks that Harry is fighting with Neville and
orders Harry to "release Longbottom, Potter, or it will be detention"
(chapter 24), and he saves Neville from Crabbe's chokehold: "And,
Crabbe, loosen your hold a little' if Longbottom suffocates, it will
mean a lot of tedious paperwork , and I am afraid I shall have to
mention it on your reference if you ever apply for a job" (chapter
32). Now granted, his reasons for asking Crabbe to let Neville breathe
are typically Snapish, but he can hardly express genuine concern for
Neville in front of Umbridge or Draco when he is explicitly concealing
his loyalties and his understanding of Harry's message about Padfoot.
As for bullying Harry, a more complex matter, he has also saved
Harry's life in SS/PS, conjured stretchers for him and three others to
save them from a werewolf any any dementors who return to the scene,
claimed that HRH were confunded when they attacked him, provided
Umbridge with fake Veritaserum to prevent her from learning the truth
about Black's and DD's whereabouts when she questioned Harry, sent the
DEs to save Harry and five others at the MoM, saved Harry from
expulsion and worse by saving Draco's life, given Harry detention
instead of expulsion after the Sectumsempra incident, and saved Harry
from a Crucio. I also think he did his best to teach Harry Occlumency
and even gave him faint praise on two occasions. So I *think* he's
concerned for Harry's safety and he doesn't want an arrogant, overly
confident, weak, inept, rule-breaking Prophecy Boy. He may be going
about it in the wrong way, and he has certainly initiated and
perpetuated the antagonism between himself and Harry (though Harry
also contributes to it, more so with each new book), but I don't think
he would pick on Harry specifically, despite Harry's resemblance to
James, if it weren't for his fear that Harry's mediocrity and contempt
for authority (as Snape sees it) will lead to disaster against
Voldemort. (I know that's just my interpretation and that others see
it differently, but I really don't think it's *just* about James. It's
about Harry vs. Voldemort. If Harry fails, the WW is lost. And if
Snape is DDM, Harry's failure is the last thing he wants.)

I think that Spy/Order member!Snape is noble and courageous, but
Teacher!Snape is less easily categorized--sarcastic, clever, and
knowledgeable but perhaps misguided in his teaching methods, wanting
to force both Harry and Neville to follow directions (and rules, in
Harry's case) without revealing the reasons for his concern either to
Harry himself or to his Slytherin classmates. I don't think he
actually dislikes Harry on the first day of class any more than he
dislikes any other "dunderhead," but he dislikes Harry's unearned
celebrity status, which could easily lead him to become another James
(who died facing Voldemort).

Carol, who thinks that Teacher!Snape is hiding his hopes and fears for
Harry behind his spite and that saving Harry's life outweighs unfair
point docking by a long shot