[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168509

> Dana:
> My problem with Snape as a teacher is not about his teaching methods
> but about his misuse of power to express his favoritism and his
> dislikes. When he ridicules and bullies his students, it has nothing to
> do with him teaching potions but everything to do with his personal
> dislike of the student. And we see how different he is from one student
> to the next. Both Hermione and Draco are good at the subject, yet he
> ridicules Hermione while acting nice towards Draco. There are other bad
> students in his class but he doesn't call them stupid or bullies them
> constantly.

Magpie:
Snape's favoritism seems, to me, to be rather exaggerated. He clearly hates 
Harry and his treatment of him is personal and unfair, but if you want a 
teacher who's OTT showing favoritism that would be Slughorn, comically so. 
Yet for some reason he's usually considered not so bad because he's kind of 
a nice guy (or for some other reason, perhaps)--even thought  he's the one 
*blatantly* trying to promote some students over others and allotting his 
attention accordingly. One of the running themes in his class was the 
irritation of students over this.

Snape's personal needling of Harry is unacceptable, but the students don't 
constantly talk about despising him. (I remember Betsy once saying that she 
thought even if a non-Slytherin student said they liked a class of Snape's 
it would be dismissed, and when it came up it was.) Snape does dislike 
Hermione for being a know-it-all--and once he really insults her badly--but 
she doesn't seem graded unfairly. He "seems to like" Malfoy just as Hagrid 
clearly doesn't like Malfoy and likes Harry, but still his class isn't about 
blatant favoritism of Draco so much as Slughorn's is about liking Harry.  He 
even does much more praising depending on the person. Snape uses Malfoy as 
an example the first day, but it's not like Potions is all about Malfoy 
being praised and praised again.

Dana:
> As someone else has pointed out he got mad at Harry for not preventing
> Neville to make a mistake but when Hermione tries to help Neville in
> later years Snape punishes her for her efforts. If Snape teaching
> methods were all about teaching then he would treat everybody the same
> and then I could agree it would work for some but not for others but
> that is not what we have seen on page now have we? No, we see that he
> bullies specific students while treating other students normal.

Magpie:
Yes, but at base, a teacher of any sort treats children differently. First, 
it's human nature that they're going to warm to some students more than 
others. I had a teacher that obviously disiliked me and liked another 
student, but she still seemed considered a good teacher. But beyond that 
students are all different so of course they'd be treated differently. In 
Snape's case he has no patience for Neville and when he causes a meltdown he 
calls him stupid. We don't see Crabbe and Goyle having the same issues in 
class, but I doubt he's pretending they're better than they are. I imagine 
their detentions in HBP where he seems to be trying to drag them by the ear 
through their DADA OWLS were just as punishing. The main difference is 
Crabbe and Goyle don't seem half so sensitive as Neville to being spoken to 
that way. Harry at first notes that Snape criticizes everyone--had Crabbe 
caused his own Potion to explode in CoS I wouldn't be surprised if Snape 
criticized him for it or called him an idiot.

Dana:
He even
> elevates the feelings of superiority of those students he treats normal
> by allowing them to mock the same students he dislikes, in front of him
> because it boosts his own ego to have these students laugh with him.
>
> If he was all about fairness then Draco's arrogance and feeling of
> superiority should equally cause Snape the same worries that people are
> saying it must be the reason for why Snape treats Harry the way he does
> but he doesn't now does he. No, he actually enforces this behavior in
> Draco by letting Draco openly amuse himself at Harry's coast. And why
> do you think that is? Because Snape is a personal friend of the
> Malfoy's and if Snape would ever got it in his head to treat Draco in
> the same way he does Harry then Lucius would be in his office so fast,
> Snape would not know what hit him.

Magpie:
This is not what Sean meant by "fairness." He said, specifically, that a 
teaching style that worked for a minority of students still had merit, that 
they shouldn't always have to have the teachers that work better for other 
people. Usually it's Snape being obnoxious in his class--it's not like Harry 
sits in Potions and has Draco insult him the whole class. Snape keeps the 
class in control (and insults Harry using his own authority, unfairly). No, 
he doesn't swoop in and scold Draco if he mocks Harry, but neither would 
most teachers probably swoop in if Harry mocked Malfoy. He keeps the class 
controlled, but also shows that he dislikes Harry and enjoys when he's 
uncomfortable.

Dana:
> And we also see that Snape did not make an ever lasting impression on
> Draco either now did he as Draco drops Snape like a brick in HBP so if
> Snape was really that good a teacher then why is he dropped without
> blinking twice? Might this be because he is as hollow as the wholes in
> a cheese? Would you think people would drop their other teachers as
> fast as Draco drops Snape? Would Harry drop Lupin if he would come in
> the same situation?

Magpie:
I think HBP totally undermines the case you're trying to make here. Draco 
does not drop Snape. The relationship between Snape and Draco may be what 
saves Draco, and part of that relationship is Draco challenging him as he 
goes through his own growing pains. According to this model Dumbledore did 
Harry no good because he "dropped" him in OotP. Snape seems to have actually 
done a good job providing what Draco needed up until this point, and he's 
still there for him when things get tough. Tough in a way I'd think Snape as 
an adult (in some respects!) would understand.



Dana:

> Snape's knowledge about the subject of potions might indeed be
> something every student could learn a lot from but Snape the person, no
> one wants to stick their neck out for and without DD trust in him, no
> one would ever have trusted Snape and that is saying something.

Magpie:
Ironically, trust in Snape seems to be something that victory might have 
wound up depending on, so I don't think there's nobody willing to trust him 
or care about him.

phoenixgod2000:

Nothing is wrong with that. But that means that every other student is
getting a much worse education in a core subject that seems pretty
darn important.  I don't think that's all right either.   When you are
the only teacher of your subject at your school--and it's a required
class, I think you have a duty to be a little more accessible than a
teacher teaching a niche elective.

Magpie:
Canonically this is not happening. There's no issue with kids not getting a 
good Potions education. Snape isn't teaching to his niche of kids, he seems 
to be teaching most kids. It would be great of Snape could be more flexible, 
but it would also be great if every teacher could be more flexible, and few 
seem to be. They're all the types of teachers they are.

phoenixgod2000:
 I disagree. If Harry had responded, he
would have had a fire lit under him. A fire to learn everything he
could about potions.  And he doesn't get that fire.  Instead, Potions
becomes a class to be endured and to do what he can to pass. He has no
love, no desire for the subject--which if Snape were a great teacher
he would have.

Magpie:
That seems a bit of an idealized goal for a high school student. Harry has 
fire for exactly one subject: DADA--and that's not due to having great 
teachers consistently. His favorite teacher fails to get him fired up about 
his subject. It's great to imagine a teacher so wonderful everyone loves his 
subject, but how many high school teachers do that? Snape seems to fire up 
some students. Sure Harry might drop the subject if he didn't have to take 
it. He does drop other subjects he was taking--it's not a tragedy. He's 
picking all his classes based on what he needs to be an Auror, not which 
ones he has a great passion for.

Dana:
His extraordinary high NEWT level submission requirement is another
example he does not care about his students because he doesn't want
to waste time with those he has to guide through this level, he only
wants those that can do it on their own. He doesn't care about his
student's future because if he did then he would know that most
students would never have passed into his NEWT class while potions is
essential to the future of most. If he really cared then he would not
have such high requirements that only a few could reach

Magpie:
Or it shows that he cares about his subject and not reaching out to 
individual students, which is consistent with his speech on the first day. 
Again, there's a continuum. He seems to take students with lower marks in 
DADA--perhaps even A students for all we know. There's always discussion 
about this type thing--McG doesn't want Neville in Transfig because his 
grade shows he couldn't handle the coursework. At NEWT level it presumably 
is more about handling the coursework than learning to love the subject. 
Snape's clearly allowed to have this high standard, so that where McG only 
allows O and E students Snape only allows Os. He would have lost 2 students 
from his NEWT class, but of course nobody's teaching requirements are 
expected to revolve around whether Harry Potter and Ron Weasley can be 
Aurors. If they really wanted it they could retake their OWLS, as C&G are 
doing in HBP. I wouldn't be surprised if requiring the highest grades in 
Potions made sense given the work being done.

Snape's treatment of Harry is I think indefensible as anything like a 
teaching method, and Harry has every right to complain that he's being 
treated unfairly. Many students have had this experience in school--it's a 
pitfall of humans teaching humans, even more so in this case. I still think 
it's a bit funny that Snape's demanding Os for his NEWT class is considered 
career and future ruining when Slughorn is openly trying to choose students 
who should have careers as a hobby. Snape demanding Os isn't unfair in terms 
of giving people a chance--everybody has the same opportunity to get an O as 
anyone else. It's another hurtle to jump to get into the elite group called 
the Aurors. That's the bar you have to clear, but nobody is entitled to 
clear it. Harry is an E student, it seems, but he's also not shown putting 
an extra effort into Potions to get the O he knows he needs. Suddenly I'm 
thinking of the movie LEGALLY BLONDE. She wants to go to Harvard, they have 
very high standards, so she must get higher than that grade on her LSAT.

Dantzel:
Now, if we really knew what an 'average' student's reaction - besides Ron 
and Harry - was, then I feel it may be valid.
  I know I'll get knocked down for this view as well, but I honestly think 
that Hermione is not a normal student, and she will listen to any teacher 
and do well, she's just that way.

Magpie:
True, Hermione's interested in all classes. And Ron and Harry are relatively 
blase about the same thing throughout school. Which I would think is normal 
for all the teachers and not something they've all failed at.

-m