[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 168598

On 10 May 2007 at 13:31, Dana wrote:

> Dana:
> The problem is this argument is used both ways because according to
> many his *individual* treatment of Neville and Harry IS what is 
> claimed to be Snape success as a teacher. They claim Snape was 
> successful on an individual level for treating these students bad
> and 
> making them succeed because of it. 

Shaun:

Yes, certainly some people do make these claims. Personally, I really wouldn't. Certainly not 
about Harry - Neville... Neville is a problem for me.

I think Harry does learn reasonably well from Snape, but I certainly don't seen Snape's 
methods as specifically good for him - I think Harry learns reasonably well from Snape 
because Snape's methods are generally effective rather than specifically effective for Harry. 
But Neville...

Until Order of the Phoenix, I was pretty convinced that Snape's methods were likely 
counterproductive for Neville. I saw him as having failed to teach Neville effectively, and to be 
taken a fairly counterproductive approach in dealing with Neville. This didn't make Snape a 
bad teacher in my view, because as I think I've made clear, I don't think a teacher has to be 
successful with every single student to be a good teacher. Virtually all teachers have some 
students they are not effective at teaching. I saw Neville as one that Snape wasn't doing well 
with.

*But* I didn't object to the way he was trying to teach Neville - because with some students, 
that type of method can work well. With the student who is capable of better work. With the 
student who is capable of rising to the challenges posed by a teacher who is a hard 
taskmaster. And the thing is, I saw Snape as failing with Neville, because I felt that Neville 
didn't have that in him. I felt Neville was too meek and mild to handle what Snape was 
throwing at him, and wasn't the type to rise to the challenge.

But I was wrong. The Neville we see towards the end of the Order of the Phoenix - the Neville 
with a broken nose, and somebody elses wand held in his trembling hand, who injured and 
afraid, scrambled towards the Deatheathers and tried to curse them - that Neville proved me 
wrong.

I'm still unconvinced that Snape's methods worked with Neville - because I can see no 
evidence that he did as well in potions as he should have - but I no longer believe that Neville 
was so weak it was likely they would have done him any harm.

Dana: 
 
> You would be right if Snape treated all students in the same way and
> then some fail and some succeed because of that but that is not how
> Snape behaves. He treats some students well and he bullies others so
> if Snape is incapable of treating his students nice then why is he
> praising Draco while not Hermione? Why is he treating Neville like a
> vermin, fouling his classroom while being nice to Grabbe and Goyle?
> Why does he treat Harry as someone that must be arrogant because of
> his status as the boy who lives, while not correcting Draco who 
> expresses more arrogance in his presents then Harry ever did and
> even having more responsibility over Draco as his Head of House. Draco is
> even more at risk then Harry is because Snape knows his daddy is a
> DE and therefore Draco is more at risk to stray into the wrong path
> then Harry? 

Shaun:

"Nothing is more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people."

Good teaching is not about treating all students the same way - because not all students 
have the same needs. Some students need praise. Some don't. And some are actually put 
off by it. So praising them all equally isn't the best way to teach them.

Snape's class, in general, is at a high standard. That suggests, that, in general, he is giving 
them what they need. That doesn't mean treating them all identically.

Look - speaking hypothetically, if I was teaching a class to these students, with the exception 
of Harry, and Neville (and I think as I have said above that I might be making a mistake by 
underestimating Neville), my approach to teaching them would be fairly close to Snape's in 
many ways. Granger - very, very bright girl, wants to prove herself - I'll push her to her limits. 
Malfoy - competent, I want him to do well, but I don't see the drive to learn in him, pushing 
him too hard would put him off - he needs an easier approach. Grabbe and Goyle - not bright, 
never going to be good at this subject - I'll try and get them through but there's no point in 
pushing them.

Dana: 

> My problem with calling Snape a good teacher has everything to do 
> with his personal vendetta's, he is working out in his classroom and
> are not part of his teaching methods but are part of Snape's 
> personality and his personal convictions. I wouldn't even be 
> surprised that he treats Hermione bad because she is a muggleborn,
> because essentially Hermione is the same kind of student Snape was
> (but with a moral compass working properly while that of Snape has
> always pointed in all direction but the right one), she wants to be
> the best in everything she does and so does Snape. So if Snape
> really 
> knows how to read his students then he should be delighted with 
> Hermione's will to succeed but he doesn't, he is working against her
> at ever opportunity he got. That is what makes Snape a horrible 
> teacher because to him teaching is not his main priority; it's just
> killing time at the expense of his students. And if you really think
> Snape is a good teacher then help me understand what Snape teaching
> methods have to do with telling Hermione "he sees no difference" 
> about her enlarged teeth, in front of other students? Hermione does
> not need this so-called individual re-enforcement to do well in 
> potions and she certainly does not deserve this kind of treatment as
> a student in his potions class.  

Shaun:

I don't believe Snape is working against Hermione. And here I am speaking as somebody 
who is an acknowledged expert on the education of exceptionally and profoundly gifted 
children, and who believes Hermione falls into that category.

The way Snape deals with Hermione in the classroom is almost exactly what most 
psychologically healthy EG/PG kids need - a teacher who sets *very* high standards, and 
simply expects them to meet them. In schools which are generally aimed at the average 
child, this is one of the best things you can give these kids.

As for the teeth comment, Snape's comment on that occasion is *absolutely* reprehensible in 
my view. And I have condemned it on previous occasions in this group - though not for a 
while, so you may never have seen me do so, or remember if you did. But... well, the easiest 
way I can address this is to quote from another message I wrote last year.

(#152415, May 18, 2006). Quote will be between lines of asterixes.

**********

And I think that what Snape said about Hermione's teeth is also utterly unjustifiable.  

And if a teacher made a habit, of vicious and malicious and utterly uncalled for statements 
like that, then I would want him gone. But the thing is - I don't think Snape does.  

The Hermione's teeth incident, horrifying as it is, is one incident after four years - actually I'll 
just include a little quote to illustrate my point of view.  

"'Malfoy got Hermione!' Ron said. 'Look!'  

He forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best to hide them with her 
hands, though this was difficult as they had now grown down past her collar. Pansy 
Parkinson and the other Slytherin girls were doubled up with silent giggles, pointing at 
Hermione from behind Snape's back.  

Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, 'I see no difference.'  

Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran, ran all 
the way up the corridor and out of sight."  

(GoF, p263).

To me something very telling takes place in this little scene. After four years of knowing 
Snape, being taught by Snape, and actively hating Snape with a passion, Ron still seems to 
expect Snape to act appropriately to Hermione's condition. He knows Snape is nasty, and 
vindictive, and vicious and whatever other label you may want to put on him. And he still 
expects Snape to take appropriate action.  

Ron is not the type of person in my opinion to *underestimate* how nasty Snape can be. 
What Snape does in this case is utterly unexpected - even to students like Harry, and Ron, 
and Hermione who hate him.  

It's not a normal response.

I do think what Snape does in that case is wrong. But I think that is an unusual case. I've read 
through all of Snape's interactions with his students quite carefully and in my view that one 
really does stand out for petty meanness with no apparent justification.  

And I don't like seeing a teacher do that. I don't think it's appropriate. I didn't think it was 
appropriate when it was done to my friend either when I was at school. And *if* there was a 
way of stopping a teacher doing those things *without* stopping them doing other things that 
might be beneficial, I'd support that.  

But the problem for me, is I'm not sure if that is possible.

I do make a very real distinction between a nasty comment made in a classroom 
environment as a form of attempting to discipline a student for a real fault, and a nasty 
comment made for no good reason.  

I think the former can be appropriate in some cases. I think the latter is inappropriate."  

**********

Dana: 

> His extraordinary high NEWT level submission requirement is another
> example he does not care about his students because he doesn't want
> to waste time with those he has to guide through this level, he only
> wants those that can do it on their own. He doesn't care about his
> student's future because if he did then he would know that most 
> students would never have passed into his NEWT class while potions
> is 
> essential to the future of most. If he really cared then he would
> not 
> have such high requirements that only a few could reach. If there 
> hadn't been a change of teacher's in the 6th year then both Ron and
> Harry could have kissed their future of becoming an auror goodbye
> and 
> this while some people claim that Snape individual treatment of
> Harry 
> was what got him through or even claim that Snape had a high success
> rate in making his students pass but then to kill it right then and
> there by eliminating all that didn't do good enough according to his
> personal standards and we see that no other teachers has such high
> requirements and I am sorry but why does Snape consider his potions
> class to be only for the elite? What makes his class so much more 
> important that the average student, with just an Exceeding 
> Expectations on his OWL, not good enough for his class. Because
> Snape 
> doesn't care about teaching but only cares about his own status and
> if he can make all his students pass NEWT level without much effort
> it makes him look like a better teacher then the rest of those 
> losers.   

Shaun:

Again, I disagree.

And it's because of the way the Wizarding education system works - and it's not all that 
dissimilar to the education system I experienced at school. It also seems to be based on the 
old British O-level, A-level system.

I don't know what education system you are familiar with, so perhaps nothing I am going to 
say here is alien or unknown to you. But it does seem to be to a lot of people who've 
experienced different systems.

What you have to consider is that the Wizarding world has a school system in which there 
are intermediate qualifications, as well as high level qualifications. It's not like the system that 
generally applies in the United States where the only 'qualification' you can get at secondary 
school level is the High School Diploma at the end of High School - and if you don't get that, 
you've basically got nothing.

It is similar to the old O-level/A-level system that operated in the United Kingdom where 
students got O-levels and then later on they did A-levels. It is also similar to the system that 
operated across a lot of Australia until quite recently of having a School Certificate and a 
Higher School Certificate.

The O.W.L.S. - the Ordinary Wizarding Levels - are a genuine qualification, and they are the 
*normal* qualification a student has. There's no requirement to do N.E.W.T.S. - Fred and 
George are an example of this.

N.E.W.T.S. *are* necessary for certain jobs. But only for certain jobs. They are a higher level 
qualification and you have to work hard and do very well to get them. The name reflects this - 
Nastily Exhausting Wizarding Tests.

The education system I am most familiar with is the one that operates where I live, of course 
- well, until quite recently a *lot* of students left school completely around their 16th birthday, 
after finishing Year 10 - our equivalent of the OWL year. You only went on to Year 11 and 
Year 12 if your marks were good enough, and your future career required those two years. 
That is the way the system worked - and it was fair. If you did well enough to pass, you got a 
qualification and you could leave. If you wanted to continue you had to get the marks required 
to continue.

Yes, Harry and Ron could have lost their chance to be aurors because their marks weren't 
good enough. Well, when I was 15, in Year 10, I could have lost my chance to be an 
Astronomer (my aim at that point) in my science mark hadn't been good enough to allow me 
to do Physics - my school required a mark of 90% in Year 10 Science to be allowed to do 
Year 11 Physics. That wasn't unfair - it was a standard the school had decided on because 
they believed if you didn't have that mark, you wouldn't be able to do well in the Year 11 
class.

The fact is, most education systems act as filters and if you don't do well enough at particular 
points, you lose options. Not everybody gets to go to the next level every time. In the 
Wizarding Education system, there's a break point between 5th and 6th year. That's the 
system.

If you don't get the marks, you don't get on.

Yes, Snape, may set higher entry standards than other teachers. That may be because he 
believes only the best students can achieve in his higher level classes.

Setting higher standards of entry also means you can have higher standards of entry in the 
classes.

On 10 May 2007 at 8:59, Dantzel Withers wrote:
 
>   I know I'll get knocked down for this view as well, but I honestly
> think that Hermione is not a normal student, and she will listen to
> any teacher and do well, she's just that way.

Shaun:

No, she isn't.

I agree that Hermione isn't a normal student - I think she is an exceptionally gifted child. But, 
she doesn't just listen to any teacher and do well.

Hermione wants to learn - and I think she will tolerate anything as long as she feels she is 
learning. But when Hermione feels like one of her teachers isn't reaching the standard 
necessary to teach her, she makes that pretty clear. She ultimately walks out of Trelawney's 
classes when she realises how useless Trelawney's teaching is. But she also criticises 
Hagrid's teaching. And she openly challenges Umbridge's teaching.

When Hermione Granger thinks a teacher is doing a bad job, we know about it.

On 10 May 2007 at 19:59, phoenixgod2000 wrote:

> Is there any evidence really that Snape's methods are targetting 
> kids that are slipping through the cracks? Harry isn't in any danger
> of that.  Neville isn't a great wizard but the only class he almost
> seems paralyzed in is potions.  If Snape was able to modify his 
> style to more closely mimic Sprouts, might he be more successful 
> with Neville? I don't see Snape really reaching students with his 
> methods.

Shaun:

Direct evidence in the books - no, not really. Except the comment by Umbridge that the class 
in general is advanced, does suggest to me he must be getting most of the students. But to 
an extent, I base my comment about students slipping through the cracks based on what I 
have seen in the real world of education.

The fact is, there *are* children who need the Snape-like style of teaching. I was one of them, 
and while I was unusual, I was not unique. I knew a reasonable number of kids in the same 
situation. And the ones who I knew at the schools where this never happened... well, I 
watched them fall through the cracks after I got out of that environment. I was the lucky one 
to an extent - only to an extent because the reason I got out was because I was hurt so badly 
by it, that the damage became apparent much earlier and was much more obvious - I wound 
up at a different school, but I was still living in the same community as the kids who didn't get 
out, and I saw them in their holidays. I watched them lose interest in school. I watched them 
fail. I watched them fall through the cracks.

Unless these kids *have* these teachers they will fall through the cracks. They exist in the 
real world - there's no reason to assume they don't exist at Hogwarts. But they are not the 
major characters - except *possibly* Hermione - but we don't see her fall through the cracks 
because she is getting it from Snape.

If Snape was able to modfy his style to more closely mimic Sprouts, might he be more 
successful with Neville? Sure. He might be. But is Snape able to do that? Does his basic 
personality allow him to be like Sprout - and if he tried to be, how badly might he do it?

The best teaching style for a particular teacher is partly wrapped up in that teachers 
personality. Some teachers would *completely* mess up the strict, hard taskmaster model - 
but are most successful if they are all sweetness and light. So those teachers should be all 
sweetness and light. Use the style that you can use most effectively.

Yes, make modifications *if* you can, without losing the style that works with most of your 
class altogether. But sometimes you can't do that.

Does that mean that you may not be able to come up with something that works for a 
particular child? Yes, it does. But if you are effectively teaching 90% of your class, then the 
fact you can't get to one child doesn't make you a bad teacher.

One of my teachers - this was when I was 16, I was in Form V. My father died between my 
fourth and fifth form year, so when I went back to school in Fifth Form, teachers were alert to 
the possibility I might be a bit emotionally fragile. Most of my teachers went out of their way to 
take account of this and treated me with kid gloves for a while. And that was fine. But  my 
Snape-like teacher however, did not do that. And it was a very good thing that he didn't - 
because from him, it just wouldn't have worked. That wasn't him.

phoenixgod2000:
 
> I suppose the debate boils down to our personal opinions on Snape's
> methods.  You've seen them do a lot of good. I've seen them do a lot
> of harm outside of very narrow circumstances.  One place I do think
> Snape's methods could work well is in a school system that was 
> mostly discipline centered like in a school for kids with criminal
> records or a continuation school. Snape's remorseless nature and 
> management style would go far in breaking them of bad habits.  But
> that isn't Hogwarts. 

Shaun:

The environment where it worked for me - and I saw it work for others - was a school that 
fitted, very much, the British Public School mould. A very traditional school, a very disciplined 
school - but not a school for kids with criminal records. A school for the privileged. A school 
for those seen as the future leaders of society. A school that saw its primary purpose as 
being to help students achieve the highest possible standards of education.

I very much believe - I've written a lot on it - that this is the model of school Hogwarts is 
based on as well. And it's a model that a lot of people regard as a very good model - and pay 
a fortune to access.

But it isn't a run of the mill school.


phoenixgod2000:
 
> I see Harry's Potion results as an anomaly.  IIRC, he gets lucky by
> having his essay question on a potion he knows intimately.  If the
> question hadn't been about polyjuice, I'm not sure he would have 
> done so well. and you can't attribute his polyjuice knowledge to 
> Snape--just their ingredients :) 

Shaun:

"Hermione's bad mood persisted for most of the weekend, though Harry and Ron found it 
quite easy to ignore as they spent most of Saturday and Sunday revising for Potions on 
Monday, the exam which Harry had been looking forward to least - and which he was sure 
would be the downfall of his ambitions to become an Auror. Sure enough, he found the 
written paper difficult, though he thought he might have got full marks on the question about 
Polyjuice Potion; he could describe its effects accurately, having taken it illegally in his 
second year.  

The afternoon practical was not as dreadful as he had expected it to be. With Snape absent 
from the proceedings, he found that he was much more relaxed than he usually was while 
making potions. Neville, who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had 
ever seen him during a Potions class. When Professor Marchbanks said, 'Step away from 
your cauldrons, please, the examination is over,' Harry corked his sample flask feeling that 
he might not have achieved a good grade but he had, with luck, avoided a fail."  

The polyjuice potion question was *one* question on the written paper of the examination - an 
examination that also had a practical component. Just one question - not 'his essay question'.  

And overall - Harry just thought he'd been lucky to avoid failing. He did significantly better 
than that, though.


Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia



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