LV's reasons for showing at the DoM (was: Snape as Neville's teacher)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168636

Carol responds:
> I'm not sure why you think that Harry would have noticed that LV is
> using the scar link to witness events--or rather, using it to 
> monitor Harry's emotions as Harry is using it to monitor whether 
> Sirius os still alive, which seems more probable given what we know 
> of how the scar link works. Harry's scar is aching or prickling on 
> and off from the time of the vision until LV arrives (when, of 
> course, the pain becomes much stronger). 
> 
> Before Harry uses Umbridge's fireplace, we have: "In truth, his scar
> was aching, but not so badly that he thought Voldemort had yet daalt
> Sirius a fatal blow. It had hurt much worse than this when Voldemort
> had been punishing Avery" (OoP Am. ed. 758)--a clue, perhaps, that 
> the vision is planted but Voldemort is still tuned in, so to speak?
> 
> When Ron, having followed HH into the forest with Neville et al.,
> asks, "Has You-Know-who got Sirius or--" Harry feels the scar give
> "another painful prickle" (760), another indication that Voldemort 
> is listening in. (Why else would it prickle at that point?)
<snip>


Dana:
The link between LV and Harry is through Harry's scar so to me it is 
a little much to assume that LV can sense more about Harry then Harry 
can about LV and we know that Harry can only sense LV's very strong 
emotions and not monitor his day to day activity by it. 

There is also another slight problem. LV has never been able to sense 
Harry emotions before and the link itself hasn't changed. LV hasn't 
come to realize the link is there because he felt Harry's strong 
emotions but because he sensed Harry presents. There is actually no 
canon that supports that suddenly LV could sense Harry's emotions let 
alone monitor it. And I think he can't. DD says LV can *access* 
Harry's feelings and thought but this doesn't have to mean that LV 
doesn't have to actively come in to access them? I do not believe 
Harry suddenly turned into a transmitter just because LV realizes 
that there is a link through the scar and if Harry is only a receiver 
that can sometimes fine tune into receiving LV's present time 
moments, then LV realizing that Harry can sense him is nothing more 
then LV sensing the presence of that receiver like an antenna that 
can sometimes interfere with other electric devices. 

There is no reason to think Harry suddenly turned into a transmitter 
that can be monitored because if he was transmitting his feelings 
then he had always done so but the connection between LV and Harry is 
through Harry's scar and to me there is no canon supporting that 
there was or always had been something on LV's side that just needed 
realization to be switched on and is now playing every tune Harry is 
sending out.  

DD did not say he was always afraid that Harry's emotions would one 
day make LV realize the connection is there and that he would become 
privy to every single emotion or thought Harry is having. He 
specifically states that LV could access Harry's thoughts and 
feelings and manipulate and misdirect them. LV can possess other 
creatures and people by placing his own awareness into them, which 
means that he could actively use the link to transmit his own 
conscious through it and because he send his own awareness with it he 
could actively experience Harry's surroundings but this still does 
not mean LV can other wise receive emotions and thoughts Harry is 
having and there is no canon indication that he can do more than make 
Harry receive things he wants Harry to receive and is able to 
somewhat like posses Harry through the link and I believe he can't do 
more then that and this is why. 

pg 693 UKed paperback

'Dumbledore never told you?' Malfoy repeated. 'Well, this explains 
why you didn't come earlier, Potter, the Dark Lord wondered why - '

'- you didn't come running when he showed you the place where it was 
hidden in your dreams. He thought natural curiosity would make you 
want to hear the exact wording...'

End quote canon. 

If LV could monitor Harry to such extend that he can receive Harry's 
emotions without actively being present in Harry's mind then why did 
LV not know that Harry didn't know what was hidden in the DoM and or 
wonder why Harry's curiosity was not evoked by it. Because actually 
Harry's curiosity was evoked so much so that he didn't want the 
dreams to stop. When Harry has the dream about Rookwood, Harry tells 
Ron about it while the scar is still hurting and if LV was able 
to "listen in" then he would know that Harry was not thinking about 
anything else but his dreams and he would also know that Harry did 
not know what was hidden there because the emotions Harry was sending 
out would make it pretty clear he didn't. 

The Occlumency lessons also cause Harry's scar to hurt often but 
according to Lucius, LV had to wonder about Harry's feelings and 
thoughts about why he isn't doing what LV expected him to do and this 
makes the assumption that he was able to monitor what Harry was 
feeling and doing after he implanted the vision of Sirius invalide. 

Another point is if LV was still `listening in' then we are missing 
scar pricklings on several occasions that Harry is having strong 
emotions about Sirius, like for instance the moment he realizes Snape 
is the only Order Member left and him trying to warn him and his 
feeling of desperation that Snape might not have understood or one 
moment he is still on his way and wondering if they might be to late, 
on both occasions there is no scar pain mentioned while these were 
very deep emotions Harry was having. 

The scar prickles precisely two times after Harry checks in with 
Sirius through the fireplace.  

The first time is with what you stated above before Harry finds a way 
to go to the DoM. I do not see the prickling of the scar as listening 
in but just something LV sent out as reinforcement and because it is 
before Harry had found a way to go to the Dom, there is no indication 
LV would be able to know Harry is actually coming if this was a time 
that LV would be listening in. The Thestrals hadn't shown up yet. So 
it actually would have told LV nothing.

The second time Harry scar hurts is when he is outside the MoM and 
which seems to be at the same interval the first reinforcement was 
sent and then it stops. Harry has no strong feelings at this moment 
he is just slightly angry that the lift is not going faster. 

Another problem I have with thinking LV would know precisely where 
Harry is by monitoring his emotions is that it assumes LV would know 
what each and every emotion means and what type of action it is 
connected too or even that Harry's emotions would reflect his 
whereabouts, and so even if he could sense Harry's emotions then this 
would be different from what we see with how Harry experiences LV's 
emotions. 

Harry does not know why LV is happy or angry (with Avery he guessed 
it was Avery getting punished because he just witnessed LV telling 
Rookwood to send in Avery). He even wonders where LV is the entire 
summer and he can't make conclusions based on his feelins on what LV 
is doing and why he is watching the news. To really know where Harry 
is LV would have needed to come take a look but he doesn't. Harry 
could very well be desperate or angry because he did not find a way 
to get to the DoM. And the other problem is that LV would not know if 
Harry took the bait with Kreacher and not go to Sirius hide out 
instead. So why does it take LV so long to check in with Harry again? 
Because like stated above he would not even know that Harry is on his 
way and Harry never has a strong emotion of enlightenment about 
finding a way because he is arguing with his friends about who is to 
come and who isn't. 

There hasn't been any "listening in" in-between these two times so LV 
would not have gotten any conformation that Harry actually arrived 
where he wanted him to be because he wouldn't know when Harry 
actually left and again if he actually could monitoring Harry in this 
way then why did he needed to be told about Harry's link to Sirius, 
Why doesn't he know Harry doesn't know what is hidden at the DoM, why 
doesn't he know precisely what is going on at the DoM and why isn't 
Snape dead for sending the Order while Harry had such a strong 
emotion realizing Snape was the only Order Member left and him trying 
to warn him, because I do not believe LV could sense Harry's emotions 
when he is not actively transmitting his own conscious through the 
link and we have seen that Harry feels a dormant snake-like creature 
rise inside him when he does and there is actually no canon 
supporting LV can sense Harry's emotions at all from an outside view, 
the above quote actually tell us the contrary. 

If you look at the two times Harry feels LV inside of him and 
conclude this must be LV sensing DD is near then why did this not 
happen during the DoM raid? Because I think it wasn't Harry's 
emotions or listening in that evoked LV to come take a look. The 
first time he comes in after he realized that Harry witnessed the 
biting incident and the second time I believe is that he is notified 
by Lucius that Fudge was going to get Harry Potter expelled from 
Hogwarts and LV checking in at that moment to see what the status of 
things were. Fudge had come specifically to Hogwarts for this on 
Umbridge notice that she could get Harry expelled.

And you might think how would Lucius know this? The same way Fudge is 
going to tell Lucius about Draco's help. 

Pg 538 UKed paperback 

`The Malfoy boy cornered him.' 

`Did he, did he?' said Fudge appreciately. `I must remember to tell 
Lucius.'

End quote canon. 

It wasn't a coincidence that Harry felt LV rise inside him at that 
moment and it weren't Harry's emotions that evoked the visit.  
 
And to me LV's actions during the DoM ordeal doesn't seem to indicate 
he precisely knows what is happening or else he would have shown up 
sooner. 
So to me this still could mean LV got conformation through Snape that 
Harry indeed was on his way to the DoM and why the reinforcements 
stopped. It is just my opinion of course but I do not see evidence 
the scar link would give LV such a wide ranged view of Harry's 
actions while we have never witnessed Harry being able to do the same 
with LV or even that LV could ever pick up on Harry's emotions at 
all. But more about that below.


Carol responds:
> The pain seems to stop, or is at least not mentioned, from the time
> they begin their ride to the time that Harry tells Bellatrix that 
> the Prophecy orb is broken, perhaps indicating that the emotions 
> Voldemort senses (fear, confusion, anger) suggest to him that 
> matters are going as he anticipated (though possibly they're taking 
> a bit too long). However, the scar hurts again just at the point 
> when he tells Bellatrix that the Prophecy orb is broken. I'll quote 
> rather than summarizing this time:
> 
> "Well, you're going to have to kill me, because it's gone,' Harry
> roared--and as he shouted it, pain seared across his forehead. His
> scar was on fire again, and he felt a surge of fury that was quite
> unconnected to his own rage. 'And he knows!' said Harry with a mad
> laugh to match Bellatrix's own. 'Your dear old mate Voldemort knows
> it's gone! <snip>  The prophecy smashed when I was trying to get
> Neville up the steps! What do you think Voldemort'll say about that,
> then!'
> 
> "His scar seared and burned . . . The pain of it was making his eyes
> stream" (811).
> 
> At which point, she screams that he's a liar and we have 
the "nothing to summon passage that I quoted earlier, Bellatrix's 
begging voldemort not to punish her, pain "more terrible than ever," 
and Voldemort saying, "So you smashed my Prophecy" (812), echoing 
words that Harry spoke *before* Voldemort's arrival.
> 
> It appears that Voldemort was monitoring the scar connection and 
> that he not only sensed Harry's emotions but actually read his 
> thoughts or heard his words when he said that the prophecy was 
> gone. Note the timing of the pain in his scar as he speaks to 
> Bellatrix--it "sears across his forehead" immediately after he says 
> that the Prophecy is gone--and note Harry's elated reaction, "And 
> he know it!" And the scar sears and burns so badly that it makes 
> his eyes stream when he tells Bellatrix that the Prophecy smashed.
<snip>

Dana:
To me this passage points out the precise moment LV enters the DoM. 
When Harry roared to Bella that the prophecy is lost, Harry feels a 
fury *unconnected* to his own rage and his scare begins to hurt. (the 
word "unconnected" indicates to me this is not a personal visit Harry 
is experiencing but a feeling Harry is picking up from LV). 
This is the moment LV sees and hears that is everything is lost and 
that he is too late to do anything about it. Harry knows this fury is 
connected to the prophecy being lost while this fury was not evoked 
the moment the prophecy broke. Harry did not have a strong emotion 
about it because it did not matter to him one way or the other. So LV 
could not have sensed a strong emotion about the prophecy being lost 
and why Harry did not sense LV getting infuriated about it then. 

LV's fury comes from him hearing Harry tell Bella it is lost and to 
me it is a lot to assume that it would take LV just a minute to 
appear at the DoM after he hears Harry tell this to Bella (if he was 
using the link to pay Harry a visit) because if that is all it takes 
for him to arrive at the DoM then it would have been faster for him 
to swoop in, take the prophecy from the shelve, and swoop out and not 
go to months of planning to have Harry take it. 

Therefore I believe LV heard Harry tell Bella not from Harry's head 
but with his own ears as he'd just arrived. Harry would not have seen 
him come in because he was hiding behind the statue of the Goblin and 
we see by his reaction to Bella that LV is coming from her direction 
because she sees him first and then Harry states LV can't hear her. 

We never see Harry express that he feels LV is inside him like we 
have seen when LV does that, but the scar is hurting in the same way 
we have seen when LV is physically near Harry and Harry not realising 
it because his scar has been hurting throughout the year. 

Also if LV goes by the emotions Harry has then the strongest emotions 
he had were the loss of Sirius and his rage for Bella killing him and 
both emotions would be something LV would be expecting and would not 
arouse the suspicion that things are not going well. We do not 
witness LV's anger when DD is rounding up his DEs and from LV's 
reaction of surprise he doesn't know DD is downstairs even if he 
could have known by listening to Bella but he ignores her. 

So to me the possibility of Snape informing LV, he notified the Order 
and the DEs not having reported back in, is in my opinion the reason 
LV came to the DoM and only when he arrives there, does he find out 
that nothing can be saved because the prophecy is lost and when DD 
shows up the only thing he is left to do is fight him and make 
another attempt on Harry's life because he knows he can't win from DD 
and save any of his DEs besides Bella and if he had know all of that 
before he entered the DoM then he wouldn't have come and expose 
himself because now he lost his advantage with that action too and as 
we see he won nothing by coming there. And maybe it is just my 
opinion but LV is not that stupid, so to me something entirely 
outside of Harry's POV brought LV to the DoM and my theory still 
stands until proven otherwise by DH (or canon I overlooked which does 
not include the above)

Carol: 
> I'm tempted to say "sorry, but," except that I really don't want to
> sound insincere and condescending, which is the way those words 
always
> sound to me. So I'll just say that the canon evidence for the scar
> connection causing Voldemort's arrival at exactly that point appears
> to be incontrovertible. 

Dana: 
You can say sorry, I do not mind I am used to the way you reply to my 
posts and fortunately canon does not contradict my claim and LV's 
actions still do not support him monitoring the scar link all through 
the events because his fury would have been noticed by Harry sooner 
and he would have arrived sooner and he would have known DD was there 
and he would have known the prophecy was lost and he would have known 
he would not be able to achieve anything by showing up there and as 
we see everybody arrives through the atrium as they can't apperate 
directly into the DoM so it is not that LV knew he would find Harry 
there at that moment. Emotions do not have a GPS system attached to 
them so even if LV would be able to sense Harry's emotions at all 
which I do not believe he can then he would not specifically know 
what means what from these emotions and I haven't seen anything in 
canon that indicates LV was inside Harry's head at any moment, all 
these events took place. 

JMHO

Dana