On the perfection of moral virtues.

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 168778


>Eggplant 
> All I can say is that Harry was braver, kinder, more generous, and
> more polite than I was at 11, or 16, or now. 

wynnleaf,
I clipped out most of your post.  You gave some valid comments as to 
why you felt some of what were outlined as Harry's flaws were not 
actual flaws, or where you felt Harry actually had strengths in 
those areas.  Your comment above reflects some of what I said in my 
last post on this thread where I commented that part of the problem 
is that Harry has not become a "better person" through the series, 
but instead is presented from day 1 as a "better person" than those 
he is compared with.  No, he's not presented as perfect, but he is 
presented as less prejudiced, more loving, more open-minded, etc.  
Whether or not you think these things are true about Harry (I don't) 
really isn't the point.  Nor is it the point that at age 11 Harry 
was "braver, kinder, more generous, and more polite" than *anyone*.  
The question really is whether, as the protagonist, Harry is any 
*more* of these things -- or any more of anything else that shows 
internal positive change -- than he was in the first book.  

I don't see Harry as growing through and beyond any of his 
misconceptions, character weaknesses, etc.  I'm not saying he should 
have become perfect, so arguments for why characters shouldn't be 
perfect are quite correct, but don't affect the point, imo.  The 
problem is that characters *should* grow.  And I don't see Harry as 
truly growing in terms of positive character traits.

Pippin's comments are the only ones that I saw mention some areas in 
which Harry may have actually grown.

Pippin
<<In PS/SS he goes from thinking he's helpless to believing he can 
help
himself. In CoS he learns the value of faith in his friends.
In PoA he learns he doesn't have to let his
sad memories overwhelm him (are you listening, Severus?). At the
beginning of GoF he can only flee from the Death Eaters, at the
end he learns he can face Voldemort himself straight-backed and
proud though he has no hope of victory.

wynnleaf
I don't completely agree with all of these.  I agree about PS/SS, 
although I think the focus there is on what Harry learns about 
himself - not about anything within that actually changes.  In CoS I 
think it's more that he *sees* his friend's faith in him and values 
that, not that he learns to have faith in his friends.  I'm not sure 
that POA really taught him much about not letting sad memories 
overwhelm him, as he continued to seem overwhelmed in OOTP, and 
later took the sadness at the end of OOTP and channeled it into a 
misdirected (at least at the time) hatred for Snape by simply 
blaming him for the greatest part of the sadness, Sirius' death.  
Yes, Harry has learned about facing Voldemort, but I didn't see that 
he had to go through any changes within himself in order to do it.  
Basically, the things in PS/SS and GOF that Harry learns in terms of 
believing he can help himself and standing up to LV are more things 
he was always capable of -- not something that he had to grow into.  
After all, Harry stands up for himself as soon as he enters the 
Wizarding World, he didn't have to go through any internal change to 
do it.  And he faces LV even in PS/SS.  

Pippin
<<But as you say, he's still judgemental and he's still learning 
when it's
appropriate to be good-mannered and when it's more important
to let people know what you think. He's struggling with his
depression and anger. IMO he's going to win, but it won't be
easy.

wynnleaf
Yes, personally I think JKR is going to have Harry learn a lot more 
in DH (I have faith in her!).  But I don't really see that Harry has 
grown much so far.  He has realized some things about himself that 
were always there, but he has yet to go through an *internal* 
struggle with any of his flaws or weaknesses in which he has truly 
come out changed.

wynnleaf