On the perfection of moral virtues/Snape and some Ron as well

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 168827


Lupinlore:
> Well, I don't know about ANY Snape other than Saint Severus, but I 
> get your drift, :-).  Which brings up a very important point, what 
is 
> meant by ESE!Snape or Evil!Snape.
> 
> Those terms are, I think, properly used in the context in which 
they 
> arose, which is that of Snape's relationship to Dumbledore.  That 
is, 
> ESE!Snape properly means a Snape who betrayed Dumbledore, is 
working 
> for Voldy, always has been, etc.  
> 
> However, very often the term Evil Snape gets applied to a Snape 
that 
> is somewhat different.  That is, it is a applied to a Snape who 
may 
> actually be working for DD (or not, as the case may be), but 
> nevertheless has a lot to atone for in his treatment of Harry and 
> Neville, etc.  The one situation has very little to do with the 
> other, I think.
.
<SNIP>


Alla:

Sure, you right. I should have specified. Snape will be evil for me 
regardless in what camp he will be revealed at the end. Evil as in 
as mean, spiteful, hateful man, who deems it possible to have a 
grudge against Harry, and treat Neville the way he does.

But I suppose if he is revealed as DD!M, some blending of the terms 
is inevitable even for me. I guess if Snape is revealed as DD!M, I 
would call him - not completely evil, maybe? Not more than that, for 
sure.

I guess then I would share SSSusan's terminology paraphrased here - 
I would then say that Snape has **some nobility** in him, enough to 
work for DD, maybe?

Meaning that I will never ever regard his actions against Harry as 
anything **other** than evil actions, but it will also be revealed 
that he did some good actions? For common good, I mean?

As to me being able to swallow any Severus other than Saint Severus, 
well, it is true, really. As so many do, I hope that Snape I see is 
the right one, hehe, but I guess it all comes down to me having more 
faith in JKR's writing abilities than you seem to have :)

Look, I brought this example several times - I was sooooo angry with 
Dumbledore after the end of OOP. My only reaction was - how dare 
you? And I also was thinking that if Dumbledore dies in HBP, there 
is no way it will touch me, at all.

Well, I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I was crying when DD died. JKR sold 
it to me very well.

So, what I am saying is I think that it is possible that JKR will 
sell me any variety of Snape and I will be happy enough, you know?

I mean I am wishing for ESE Snape or LID Snape more than others, but 
maybe I will be happy with Jen's Snape ( Grey Sna[e of her variety), 
I know I love Siguin Snape as well, heheh.

But Saint Severus has to die, oh my goodness, please die. It is just 
no matter how well I think JKR can write, in my mind Snape committed 
too much evil towards these boys that JKR can completely validate 
him and let him come out smelling like a rose, even if he killed DD 
on DD orders, you know?

It is actually funny, because when I was trying to get myself in the 
mindset of believing that Snape killed DD on his orders, one good 
thing that came out of it is that I realised that yeah, I won't be 
too dissapointed. I mean, it indeed means for me the death of Albus 
Dumbledore character as I see him, but I can see Snape doing that 
and be in character.


> > Pippin:
> > But why can't it be both? Look at Harry, he's cool, noble and 
brave,
> > *and* he needs to be pitied and forgiven.


Alla:

Why can't it be both? Sure it can be. I just do not want it to be 
both and do not think it will be both, but it is certainly a 
possibility. As to comparison with Harry, see beyond. On that I 
completely agree with LL.



Lupinlore: 
> Hmmm.  Pitied and forgiven for what?  I'm not terribly sure I 
follow 
> the reasoning.  Perhaps Harry needs to forgive himself due to 
various 
> things, but from whom else does he need forgiveness?  Draco?  I 
think 
> that's rather like the horse thief forgiving the posse.  
Marietta?  
> Ditto, and that's more of a Hermione issue, anyway.  Cho?  Snort, 
> chuckle, laugh. The Dursleys? Double snort, chuckle, laugh.  
Snape? 
> ROTFLMAO!

Alla:

Yes, Snape needs to forgive Harry. I mean, really how dare he was 
born to the couple he sold to Voldemort?

How dare he looks like "his filfy father" indeed? <g>

Seriously I do agree with you. I see nobody at this point in the 
books from Harry needs forgiveness, except himself, literally.

 
> Pippin:
> Um, no. Disgraced Harry, watching from the sidelines because
> he's been banned for life  isn't a patch on QuidditchCaptain!Harry,
> who is responsible for  evaluating Ron's performance and could 
> throw him off the team if he's not good enough.
> 
> Moreover, it's not Ron's story, it's Harry's, and I think it's 
really
> Harry's growth that's important here. This is the first time that
> Harry showed patience and understanding when a friend let him
> down. I think it's important that the reader gets a bit frustrated
> with Ron's lack of progress, because it points up the fact that
> Harry didn't. Harry didn't get so angry that he gave up on Ron,
> and that's very different from the way he treated Hermione in 
> PoA or Ron in GoF, or even Dumbledore in OOP.


Alla:

Okay, now **this** I totally buy. Congratulations Pippin, you 
convinced me why Ron needed to have Quidditch troubles again in HBP 
and I **was** seriously frustrated with it.

Bravo :)