On the perfection of moral virtues.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 168836

Lupinlore wrote:
> Hmmm.  Pitied and forgiven for what? <snip> Perhaps Harry needs to
forgive himself due to various things, but from whom else does he need
forgiveness?  <snip> Snape? ROTFLMAO!

Carol responds:
Harry violated Snape's trust and privacy by entering the Pensieve.
While you may think that Snape's words and actions are more harmful
than that particular bit of irresponsibility, I'm afraid that not
everyone shares your view. Nor is that the only instance. Harry has
never showed the least bit of gratitude to Snape for saving his life
in SS/PS, for example. Just think. If Snape hadn't taught Harry about
Bezoars, Ron would be dead. If Snape hadn't taught Harry Expelliarmus,
Harry would be dead. If Snape hadn't sent the Order to the MoM, six
teenagers would be dead. Snape saves Harry from a Crucio in HBP. For
some of us, those actions, and Snape's attempts to keep Harry out of
trouble (away from the third-floor corridor in SS/PS, out of Hogsmeade
in PoA), not to mention courageous actions such as revealing his Dark
Mark to Fudge and returning to Voldemort on DD's orders in GoF,
outweigh his sarcasm and point-docking and his very understandable
detestation of James Potter. For you, they don't. But either way, it's
opinion, not fact. 

I certainly won't laugh if the forgiveness is mutual in DH. It's
essential, IMO, for Harry to forgive Snape, regardless of Snape's
motives and loyalties. (I think we can rule out an ESE!Snape who's
always been loyal to Voldemort.) It's not essential for Snape to
forgive Harry, but DDM!Snape certainly needs to realize that Harry,
like it or not, is the only Chosen One he's got, and he'd better help
him if he wants Voldemort to win. And maybe, just maybe, he can learn
that Harry isn't James. I'd like that, whether you would or not, and
it would be no laughing matter. It might even be a poignant moment,
worth reading over and over. 
> 
Lupinlore: 
> Or, perhaps, it might be insipid and preaching to the point of
nausea, not to mention constituting approval of abusive behavior.  

Carol:
That is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but it's not fact.
Those of us who like Snape and don't consider his sarcasm and
point-docking abusive or who view it as outweighed by his many
attempts to save or protect Harry and friends are not condoning child
abuse. I don't think anyone on this list approves of Umbridge's
genuinely abusive detentions, for example. Nor would JKR's having
Snape's loyalties and lifesaving outweigh his sarcasm and hatred of
James (I also dislike James, sorry!) be an indication that she
approves of child abuse. You're free to read it that way, but if I'm
not mistaken, you're among the few people on the list who see it that
way. Not even the adamantly anti-Snapers, to my knowledge, see JKR in
this way.

Lupinlore:
Now, I think there are ways that such a storyline might be handled. 
But a "you were DDM! and all is forgiven no apologies necessary
because I now understand that nice is not the same as good?"  Well,
then, I think, it would be time to feed the book into the old
woodchipper and good riddance to it.

Carol:
Oh, I think it will be much more poignant than that, preceded by a lot
of anger and shared misunderstanding (cf. Harry's attitude toward
Sirius Black in PoA). And some of the information seems likely to come
from another source, as seventeen-year-old, revenge-driven Harry isn't
likely to listen to Snape without first having heard something to make
him rethink his perception of events on the tower. But like it or not,
forgiveness and mercy and redemption are Christian themes, and JKR is
a Christian. I, for one, will be very disappointed if Harry lets
something so petty as an undeserved zero in Potions stand in the way
of his forgiveness of Snape. And I hope that Snape will not let
Harry's rule-breaking and disrespect and "mediocrity" and descent from
James prevent him from helping Harry defeat Voldemort. They'll never
like each other, but surely they can arrive at an understanding. I
only hope it doesn't take Snape's death to accomplish that.

Please bear in mind that what you consider reprehensible and what
others consider reprehensible is not necessarily identical or even
similar. I certainly look forward to something like the ending that
would land your books in the wood chipper.

Carol, hoping that Lupinlore has stocked up on whatever fuel a wood
chipper requires as I expect he's going to need it