On the perfection of moral virtues

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 168844

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip> 
> > Because the very next year, Ron has the *exact* same problem.  

> >>Pippin:
> > Except it's not the *exact* same problem... <snip>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Except as far as Ron's concerned it *is* the exact same          
> > problem... <snip> 

> >>Pippin:
> Um, no. Disgraced Harry, watching from the sidelines because
> he's been banned for life  isn't a patch on QuidditchCaptain!Harry,
> who is responsible for  evaluating Ron's performance and could 
> throw him off the team if he's not good enough.

Betsy Hp:
Um, yes.  (Sorry, couldn't resist keeping to pattern. <bg>)  

Do you have any canon that shows this is how Ron was feeling? Because 
IMO, I'd think having your quidditch mad friend, frustrated on the 
side lines and watching your every move, a bit more intimidating than 
having your best bud captain you.  Especially since as far as Ron's 
concerned he won his spot on the team fair and square in HBP (as 
compared to OotP).

> >>Pippin:
> Moreover, it's not Ron's story, it's Harry's, and I think it's     
> really Harry's growth that's important here. This is the first time 
> that Harry showed patience and understanding when a friend let him
> down.

Betsy Hp:
I get that it's Harry's story.  I just think JKR sacrificed Ron's 
story, made a sloppy writing choice, in order to make telling Harry's 
story a bit easier on her. 

> >>Pippin:
> I think it's important that the reader gets a bit frustrated
> with Ron's lack of progress, because it points up the fact that
> Harry didn't.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Only I wasn't frustrated with Ron.  I was (and am) frustrated with 
JKR.

> >>Pippin:
> There's a tension in the story itself between Harry seeing
> his role models as  wish-fulfillment figures who can do the 
> impossible and make it look easy (James, Dumbledore) 
> and the not yet articulated realization that if their 
> attainments were truly the result of perfection, they would 
> be forever beyond Harry's reach. 

Betsy Hp:
I agree that Harry has a tendency to think people are either born 
good or born bad.  And since he's very good at excusing those he 
likes if given half the chance, it's a tendency that's not often 
shaken.  I do expect that to change, yes.

> >>Pippin:
> JKR's ultimate aim, I would venture, is not to transform
> her characters. It's to transform *us*, or at least to make
> us see that transformation is not beyond *our* reach.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I, wait, what?  *I* don't tend to think people are born either good 
or bad.  *I* don't live in the shadow of my family.  *I* have never 
branded a schoolmate's face because she crossed me. So what exactly 
am I supposed to be transforming into?  And who the heck does JKR 
think she is that she feels she can tell me how to fix my life?  I 
don't see no halo on her. <g>

> >>Pippin:
> I doubt it matters to her how much we dislike the characters
> as they are in Book Six as long as we don't get so alienated
> that we don't read Book Seven.
> <massive snippage>

Betsy Hp:
I snipped the rest of your post, but I do agree with it. Our good 
guys all have their shadows that they need to grow beyond.  I guess, 
my frustration and worry comes about because I'm not confident that 
JKR is juggling the various issues she's raising all that well.  
(Hopefully DH will show that I've worried for nothing.)

> >>Magpie:
> I don't know if I'm going to be able to put this into words but...I
> think sometimes the issue isn't that the kids don't change or learn,
> but that for some reason the books don't manage to inspire the kind
> of thought about this stuff that they should. And I don't know if
> that's necessarily the author's intention.

Betsy Hp:
Yes, yes, yes!  I think this is *exactly* the problem I'm having!  
It's so very hard to tell if JKR really means for some of the 
questionable stuff as per me to actually *be* questionable. 

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> I don't see a lot is discussions as concepts of some of the things
> the books seem to lay out as bad. 
> <snip>
> What I'm saying, I guess, is that although the book seems to be
> about good vs. evil it doesn't really seem to always encourage the
> close examination of evil in the bad guys or the good guys or
> ourselves.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  For example, Hagrid attacking Dudley because Vernon pissed 
him off.  It's never discussed within the books.  Harry isn't at all 
uncomfortable about it, Hagrid isn't all that embarrassed by it.  
When Lucius attacks Ginny because he's angry at Arthur, there's no in-
page link made back to Hagrid's behavior.  So would a child even see 
Hagrid's behavior as linked to Lucius's?  Is it something I caught 
personally, but that JKR herself never noticed?

Or with Fake!Moody torturing Draco.  It's never revisited.  None of 
the Trio take a moment after the big reveal to think that maybe that 
particular scene should have been a clue and maybe they let their 
personal feelings for Draco taint their interpertation of Fake!
Moody's behavior. So was JKR actually okay with it?  Should the 
reader be okay with it? 

I mean, we have had big discussions about the above (and more <g>) on 
this list, and even folks I disagree with are engaging the issues. So 
what I see as pretty big ethical issues are being wrestled with.  But 
we're adults.  Slightly obsessive adults for that matter.  Would a 
kid just reading these books on a rainy day even notice these issues? 
Or would the questionable behavior on the part of the "good guys" 
just slide in under their radar?

I can say that at this point this is not a series I'd specifically 
recommend for children.  For the horribly icky reason that I'm not 
sure they're all that moral.  (I know!  I feel like I'm channeling 
Umbridge here. Not a great feeling. <g>)  I mean, I'm not going to 
*discourage* someone from buying these books for their kids, but I am 
pretty uncomfortable with the message JKR may ultimately be putting 
forth, purposefully or not.  And I honestly hate that.  Because she's 
obviously a good writer, with an ability to strike a chord in 
children.  I am just not all that cool with the resulting resonance.

Betsy Hp (really, really hoping DH proves her a fussy old worry-wart)