On Harry and Snape forgiveness, was: On the perfection of moral virtues

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 168865

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" <jmrazo at ...> 
wrote:
> While
> forgiveness is all well and good in the real world, forgiving 
someone
> who doesn't acknowledge it or respond to it by someone who has
> justifiable reasons to hate the other person won't be satisfying 
for
> at least me.  
> 
> And I'm not talking about the teaching or the meanness or the 
ordinary
> point taking.  Snape, lest anyone forget about it, was the spy that
> told Voldemort the prophecy.  In a very real way, he got Harry's
> parents killed. He may not have pulled the trigger, but he was the
> informant. He was part of the process that left Harry an orphan at 
the
> tender mercies of the Dursleys.
> 
> Harry would be justified in never forgiving Snape ever.  Hell, in 
my
> book he would be justified in killing Snape with his bare hands 
(but
> I'm a bloodthirsty type).  

wynnleaf
On the one hand, I agree that Harry has a lot more reasons to hate 
Snape than just sarcasm, insults, and point taking.  Snape did take 
the partial prophecy to Voldemort which, even if Snape didn't 
realize that would bring about the Potter's death, did indeed lead 
to Voldemort's killing them.

At the end of HBP, Harry also quite legitimately thinks that Snape 
murdered Dumbledore in cold blood.  So, until such time as he learns 
otherwise, this is also a reason for Harry to hate Snape.  If Harry 
later learns that Snape's actions were justified, then this 
particular reason for hating Snape is removed (imo).  

phoenixgod2000
In the list of ways they have wronged each
> other, Snape's scale is so overbalanced its just plain 
ridiculous.  
> 
> A lot of people seem to forget that.  Hell, in my least favorite
> Dumbledore scene in HBP he forgets that.  I don't think I ever 
found
> Dumbledore more unlikable than when he just shoves Harry's very 
real
> angry and frustration under the rug.
> 

wynnleaf
Those that are concerned that it is forgotten that Snape's carrying 
the prophecy to Voldemort led ultimately to Voldemort killing the 
Potters, appear to forget that Snape's sending the warning to the 
Order ultimately led to saving the lives of Harry and his friends.  

Further, we have other examples of Snape saving Harry's life, 
protecting Harry, risking his life to bring about the defeat of 
Voldemort (the Potter's killer).

Sure, one could argue that we may discover in DH that Snape never 
tried to protect Harry, didn't really save his life in PS/SS, wasn't 
really helping to save Harry in OOTP, wasn't really risking his life 
to bring down Voldemort, and so on.

But if JKR shows us that in fact Snape *was* loyal to Dumbledore and 
the Order, then all those instances of saving Harry, protecting 
Harry, and risking his life to bring down Voldemort have to count 
for something, especially when what those things are counting 
*against* is Snape (if Dumbledore is correct) *inadvertently* 
bringing about the Potter's deaths through telling Voldemort the 
prophecy.

After all, one could just as easily say -- if Snape's part in the 
Potter's deaths was unintentional as Dumbledore thought -- that 
Harry was just as much to blame for Sirius' death and the injuries 
of his friends and Order members by leading all of them into danger 
in the Ministry of Magic at the end of OOTP.

Yes, Snape has done things which give Harry cause to hate him.  But 
if Snape turns out to be loyal to Dumbledore, then he's also done a 
great deal for which Harry ought to learn at least some degree of 
appreciation.  And to date, Harry has not been willing to 
acknowledge that.  Even before he learned that Snape had anything to 
do with his parent's deaths, he still could not acknowledge or have 
the slightest appreciation for Snape's actions which had saved his 
life or the lives of his friends.  If Snape is indeed loyal, then 
those actions *did* save Harry's and his friend's lives, and Harry 
has to learn to acknowledge that and weigh all of Snape's actions in 
the balance.  Harry may find that when he weighs everything, Snape's 
unintentionally causing the Potter's deaths may truly be 
counterbalanced or even outweighed by Snape's intentional risking of 
his own life time and again to protect and save Harry and his 
friends and to destroy the murderer of Harry's parents.

wynnleaf