GoF fight between Harry and Ron/ On the perfection of moral virtues. LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 168909

  > Montavilla47:
> I understand what you are saying and I agree with you to a
> certain extent.  But I feel like both Ron and Harry were being
> jerks for several weeks.  Ron was the first one to be a jerk.
> But their breach lasted a lot longer than it would have if 
> Harry had absorbed what Hermione said about Ron being 
> jealous and dealt with that, instead of staying angry about
> it.

Alla:

See, I am just not seeing that the burden was on Harry to deal with 
it. Actually NO scratch that, from the position of the adult I can 
see how the one who values his friend and sees his friend not on the 
best behavior, may want to do something about that.

Do something about that meaning calling his friend on his behavior 
and see what happens.

But from the position of fourteen year old, whose best friend just 
accused him of God knows what, why? He is stressed by entering a 
tournament he does not want to enter, nobody (including his best 
friend)  believe him that he did not do it ( well, Hermione does) 
and he has to go and deal with Ron's jealousy?

I just disagree with that. I mean if it was a less extreme situation 
for Harry, maybe. Again, not as obligation, but as something that 
friend may want to try to do in order not to lose his friend over 
one fight. But certainly not when Harry is trying to figure out how 
too survive the tournament in my opinion.

Like for example in PoA, I thought it was rather obnoxious of 
Hermione to go and tell Minerva about the broom. But there is no 
question for me that she had the best intentions in my mind, so I 
sure would not have minded for Harry to use his brain and think it 
over again.

Fight with Ron - just do not see it at all.

Oh, and just in case I am not Harry/Hermione shipper. Could never 
ever from the very beginning see Hermione with anybody but Ron, saw 
sero, zilch, nada romantic chemistry between her and Harry.

It is just in this situation I can see Hermione side and sympathise 
and do not have much sympathy for Ron's side :)


Montavilla47: 
> Ron could have swallowed his pride and begged forgiveness
> weeks before the first task.  But if he honestly thought that
> Harry had put his name in the goblet, why should he? 

Alla:

Sure, it is the "honestly thought that Harry had put his name in the 
goblet" thought I am having trouble and want to slap Ron for. He IMO 
should have known Harry better than that.


Montavilla47:
 He 
> was still worried enough about Harry that he went looking
> for him when Harry was missing from bed.  In return, 
> Harry chucked a badge at him.  I'm not sure you get much
> jerkier than throwing a sharp metal object at someone's
> head.
>

Alla:

Yes, again, not the longlife grudge of huge proportions, fight 
between friends, just the fight I completely refuse to put 
responsibility on Harry's shoulders for.

Just as I refuse to put responsibility on Ron and Hermione for a lot 
of things Harry said to them in OOP. I totally sympathize with Harry 
going ballistic in OOP, in my view his breakdown was long overdue, 
just Ron and Hermione were not the people to run his mouth at.

And what happened in GoF I explain by Ron not trusting his best 
friend enough. I do not like it. I am not saying Ron should be hated 
for that. Staff happens. 

> Carol responds:
> But do you agree that if Harry had told Ron the full truth, 
repeating
> Fake!Moody's words, that Ron would have believed him?
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Do I believe it? Sure, otherwise I would think of Ron as very rotten 
friend, if he would not have believed his friend that people are 
trying to kill him. I am saying it should not come to that when Ron 
will **only** believe his best friend when he gives him convincing 
reasons to do so.


Carol:
> I still think Ron's reaction, if not admirable, is perfectly
> understandable (even for a best friend who's like a brother since
> brothers who love each other fight in RL and in fiction) and would
> have been avoided altogether if Harry hadn't been worried about
> sounding melodramatic. As you said yourself, Ron *knows* that 
people
> are out to kill Harry, and he would have believed the story, but 
Harry
> didn't give him that chance.
> <SNIP>


Alla:

Harry told him that he did not do it, and that IMO should have been 
enough.  And yes, that is what I expect best friends to do in RL as 
well. But 
to me close friends are like family, really. So, let's put the word 
family instead. If my brother or my mother tells me they did not do 
something, I will take it on faith, I sure would not ask them for 
any reasons, if they do not want to tell me, same with my close 
friends ( I do not call every acquaintance of mine friend, but if I 
use this word, it means a lot to me) I expect the same to be between 
Harry and Ron. And JKR actually said that Ron and Hermione are his 
family, didn't she?



Carol:
<SNIP>
> Prophecy Boy and Chosen One or not, Harry is not always right, and
> "Because I said so" is not a sufficient reason to believe anyone.

Alla:

On that we have to agree to disagree. It is not a sufficient reason 
to believe   just anyone, and DA example actually works for me, but 
it should be in my view enough reason to believe a best friend.

Carol:
 Ron,
> his best friend who has loyally stood by him and risked his life in
> the chess game and by entering the CoS (not his fault that the wall
> fell in) and blocked his path, deserves to be told the truth.

Alla:

And he was - he was told that Harry did not do it, which was the 
truth.



> Carol, still clearly seeing Ron's side and wishing Harry could have
> put himself in Ron's place
>

Alla:

I do see Ron's side, I just cannot sympathize with him, I am afraid.

But I think JKR does sympathise with him, didn't she say something 
like that on the website?






Phoenixgod:

> So the message should be that he should just be a good little 
monkey 
> and politely go where the manipulators who know better than he 
does 
> tells him to go?  that all those people who he'd saved when the 
> adults couldn't or wouldn't should be dead because Harry needs to 
> learn his place?  
> 
> That sounds worse than me.
> 
> If anything, Harry needs to learn to stand up to more people. He 
let 
> Dumbledore off far too lightly in HBP and Snape...
> 
> there aren't enough hours in the day for me to explain what Harry 
> should do to Snape.

Alla:

Oh Oh well said, so well said. I mentioned several times how much I 
disliked "Dumbledore's man" name Harry took, and I hope that at the 
end of book 7 it will transform in "I am my own man", but I am not 
sure if I should be holding my breath.

Loved your whole post, so did :) 
 

> Meghan, who is inclined to believe in ESE!Snape, but who is a bit
> apalled by the amount of vitriol being spewed at him.
>
<SNIP>


Alla:

Heee, responding only to your signature, but please do not be 
appalled, LOL. 
We are equal opportunity offenders here ;)

I am certainly belonging to the camp who spews vitriol on Snape, but 
I can certainly send you links to the post that are just as 
vitriolic to Harry or Sirius or Dumbledore.

Every character gets his fair share, me thinks :) Although we sure 
talk about Snape **a lot**.

Now, I am a bit surprised why you would be surprised at people being 
angry at Snape, if you are inclined to believe that he is ESE.

I always give that example which maybe can make my view easier to 
understand. First of all, I sure read the books I consider good with 
emotional attachments to the characters. I believe many people on 
this list do to different degree. I did cry when Sirius and 
Dumbledore died and will cry if Harry dies and will do a happy dance 
if Snape dies <bg>.


So, reading with my emotions as well with my brain, I sure want the 
villains to be punished and as gruesomely as possible.

Don't you want Voldemort to be punished? I mean, if you have 
sympathy for Voldemort poor damaged unloved soul <g>, my comparison 
will not make sense for you, but if you do want him punished, then I 
see Snape just as evil as Voldemort, and in many aspects much 
**better** written evil, wierdly.

Snape is very effective for me as evil, Voldemort I sometimes laugh 
it ( not what JKR intended me to feel, am sure of that.

That is why I will continue be very vitriolic about Snape, till JKR 
tells me otherwise, LOL.

That's just how I read the good books, hehe.