Revenge as excuse for violating Snape's trust??? (Was: On the perfection . . .

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 168940

"Meghan" wrote:
> 
> > So, two wrongs make a right? 
> 
Eggplant replied:
> No, but five years of wrongs do, or at least they would seem to be
worth a right to virtually every 15 year old boy who has ever lived.

Carol responds:
That assertion is debatable, and I don't think Harry actually agrees
with it (nor does JKR, IMO), but it's also irrelevant to the
situation. Harry isn't thinking about the "wrongs" Snape has committed
(which consist of sarcasm, point deductions, detentions, and
repeatedly saving his life or protecting him, which Harry doesn't
acknowledge). He's not after revenge, breaking yet another rule to get
back at Snape, or violating his privacy to *hurt* him. He's just
curious about the memories that Snape placed in the Pensieve. He knows
it's wrong to snoop (funny how he and Snape seem to have eavesdropping
as a shared fault), but he can't resist the temptation. It's exactly
like reading someone's secret diary. Snape has specifically removed
those memories so that Harry (or Voldemort?) won't see them, but it
never occurs to Harry that he might have a valid reason for doing so.

"The silver-white contents were ebbing and swirling within. snape's
thoughts . . . things he did not want Harry to see if he broke through
Snape's defenses accidentally. . . .

"Harry gazed at the Pensieve, *curiosity* welling inside him. . . .
What was it that Snape was so keen to hide from Harry? <snip> Could it
possibly be information about the Department of Mysteries that Snape
was determined to keep from him?" (639)

Oops. It's not just Snape but *Dumbledore* who's trying to keep Harry
away from the Department of Mysteries, and Harry knows that. He ought
to realize that they're trying to protect him from Voldemort. He knows
that Snape doesn't want him to see whatever is in the Pensieve, though
it never occurs to him that it might be private or that it might be
something Snape doesn't want *Voldemort* to see (as may be the case
with the other two memories). He just calculates the amount of time
that Snape will be away and takes his chances, driven by curiosity,
not revenge.

Meghan: 
> > I do think that Snape should've given Harry a chance to remove any
especially painful memories before starting his lesson. 
> 
> But he didn't, but Snape is a big boy so if he wants to play the
game that way he should be prepared for the consequences. Turnabout is
fair play and if he can't stand the heat he should get out of the
kitchen.  

Carol responds:
First, removing memories from one's own head is a skill that Harry
hasn't learned yet. Possibly you have to be a Legilimens (not counting
an accidental mind link with Voldemort) to do it (not to mention that
he'd need his own Pensieve, or they might end up putting the wrong
memories back into their heads). Practically and logistically, it's
impossible for Harry to remove his own memories, and I very much doubt
that he'd want Snape to remove them for him.

But also, the whole point of the Occlumency lessons is to get Harry to
prevent intrusion into his mind, and only if he has memories he
doesn't want Snape to see can he learn to do it.

Snape, however, may have good reason for removing his memories, not
only sparing himself the humiliation of having Harry seeing him
bullied by Harry's father or preventing Voldemort from seeing one or
more of them. Notice that Snape is a good deal more fair and
reasonable than usual with Harry in the Occlumency lessons, not
deducting a single House point or assigning any detentions, explaining
what Harry needs to know, even faintly praising him. He doesn't punish
Harry for hitting him with a Protego and releasing some of his own
childhood memories. That's what Harry is *supposed* to do, at least
until he learns to use his mind as he did with the Imperius Curse. He
only gets angry when Harry sees memories that aren't his own,
indications that Harry not only isn't practicing Occlumency but
*wants* to have that dream of the corridor.

Could it be that this unusual fairness (relatively speaking--Snape is
still Snape) might result from having the memory of his humiliation at
James's hands out of his mind? If so, then Snape not only had every
right but had very good reason to remove that particular memory. He
may even have done so at Dumbledore's suggestion, and he certainly did
so with DD's permission. He's using DD's Pensieve, after all.

Msghan:> 
> > Harry had absolutely *no* right to go snooping around someone
else's memories. 
> 
Eggplant:
> So we readers are supposed to get all weepy because big bad 15 year
old Harry is picking on fully grown Professor Snape, the mighty
Potions Master at Hogwarts? I don't think so. Harry is starting to
understand that if he wants to survive he must never give the enemy an
even brake; certainly Snape never gave one to Harry. 

Carol:
Not weepy. I, for one, am glad that Harry got to see what an "arrogant
berk" his father really was, confirming what Snape always said about
him. Unfortunately, Snape didn't realize how Harry felt, and Harry's
own misery (not over his own wrong action but over his father's)
didn't last very long.

As for "giving the enemy an even break," he's not perceiving Snape as
the enemy here, nor do I see any indication that Harry is developing
that philosophy at this point. (It's only when he gets to the MoM and
sees Bellatrix kill Sirius Black that he starts thinking it's okay for
good guys to cast Unforgiveable Curses, and I'm pretty sure he'll
learn otherwise in DH.)

The point is simply that Harry should not have entered the Pensieve,
which he did behind Snape's back when Snape left the room, knowing
full well that Snape--the teacher who was trying to help him learn
Occlumency, the Order member who was spying on Voldemort at great
personal risk and was concealing info about the MoM on EE's
orders--did not want him to see those memories. 

That Harry was acting out of curiosity, not revenge, does not excuse
him for violating the trust of a professor who has never trusted him
before, but it's certainly a more legitimate reason than the excuse
you're trying to provide for him, revenge against an "enemy" who
either isn't, or has not yet shown himself to be, an enemy. As far as
Harry knows, Snape is an Order member teaching him Occlumency to
protect him against Voldemort's intrusions into his mind, and, as
such, he may well have good reasons that Harry would do well to
respect for putting those memories into the Pensieve.

Carol, who, of course, thinks that Snape had good reasons but does not
yet know what they were
> 
> > it's the lowest thing Harry's ever done,
> > including Sectumsempra.
> 
> If so, if that is the worst thing Harry will ever do then he's a saint.
> 
> > both DD and the prophecy state that it
> > is Harry's ability to love that will 
> > enable him to defeat Voldie
> 
> But that doesn't mean Harry must be a wimp and a patsy, or at least I
> hope that's not what JKR meant, if it is then the last book will stink
> to high heaven.
> 
> > That is your interpretation,
> > you're entitiled to it. 
> 
> Thanks, and you are entitled to my interpretation too.
> 
> justcarol67 Wrote:
> 
> >Harry has never showed the least bit
> > of gratitude to Snape for saving his
> > life in SS/PS 
> 
> And Snape has never shown the least bit of gratitude to Harry for
> saving his life TWICE in the very same book, AND again in the next
> book. Harry did this by stopping Voldemort from taking over the world.
> That is to say, Harry saved Snape's life if you are correct and Snape
> really is the avowed enemy of Voldemort.
> 
> Eggplant
>