On the perfection of moral virtues.

[julie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168992

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" <eggplant107 at ...> 
wrote:
>
>  "julie" <juli17@> wrote:
> 
> > The meaningful difference between 
> > Harry inadvertently saving the WW,
> > or Snape inadvertently saving it,
> 
> Harry did not "inadvertently" confront the 3 headed dog and all 
those
> other horrors, he knew exactly what he was getting into. Harry did 
not
> "inadvertently" decide to go into the Chamber Of Secrets, he knew
> there was a good chance he'd never come out alive but he went in
> anyway. However Snape did NOT put himself in any personal danger 
when
> he saved Harry. 

Julie:
Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were refering
to Harry surviving DH. It is true that Harry thwarted 
Voldemort in the instances above. I won't go so far as to
say he saved the WW at that point, as Voldemort still 
survived to gain a body in GOF. So I can't really see 
Snape (or most anyone outside of Ginny) even thinking 
Harry saved his life. Harry may do so someday, as he 
will certainly save the WW, but he hasn't been put in
that position yet. (And I am not taking away from Harry's
bravery or what he did accomplish in delaying Voldemort's
return; you just can't extrapolate "saving the WW" from it.)

As for Snape, we don't yet know how much personal danger
he has placed himself in throughout the books. Though it
is true he certainly wasn't in any personal danger in PS/SS.
That wasn't the point though. The point was Harry didn't
thank Snape for saving him. Which is not required, though
I actually wouldn't have been surprised if Harry had, as
their relationship, while unpleasant, hadn't deteriorated
to outright hostility at that point.

Julie:
> 
> > is that Snape's actions in PS/SS
> > were deliberate acts to save Harry.

Eggplant:
> And Harry's actions were deliberate acts to save the entire world.
> Call me silly but I just don't find such an intent ignoble. 

Julie:
Harry's actions weren't ignoble at all. But I was also
replying to your post that Snape should thank Harry for 
saving *him.* That's the assertion I disagree with, that
Snape has had reason to thank Harry for saving him, as
Harry has never directly done so. 

Eggplant: 
> I said it before I'll say it again, for reasons I do not understand
> among fans Harry is never given one inch of slack, not even enough 
to
> cover being a bit grumpy with his friends on a few rare occasions.
> Snape on the other hand is given about 27 miles of slack, enough to
> cover even the murder of Dumbledore.  I just don't get it.

Julie:
I haven't taken much part in the debate over Harry's grumpiness
with his friends, but I admit I do feel free to call Harry on
his misdeeds. Why? Because Harry is the hero, one of the good
guys, and I automatically hold him to a higher standard than 
Snape, or Draco, or any of the other questionable characters.
(Those on the definite side of evil--Voldemort, Bellatrix, 
Fenrir, etc--I pretty much ignore, as they're lost causes.)

I can't speak for others, but the reason I give Snape a lot
of "slack" as you call it, is because he is DELIBERATELY
written as an ambiguous character. Yes, it was JKR who 
put all that slack in Snape's character! While we know 
he's unpleasant in personality, we don't yet know if he is
on the side of good or evil. Thus our point of evaluation
is not defined, as it is with Harry. We know Harry and his
motivations as Harry flat out TELLS us when he's acting in
a less than noble manner (he knows it's wrong to peek into
the Pensieve, he knows it's wrong to sneak off to Hogsmeade,
he knows he's being irrational blaming Snape for Siruis's
death, etc, etc.) It's difficult to ignore Harry's own
conscience telling on him!

As for Snape, we all have theories about why he did this 
and why he did that, but we have few facts. For instance,
his "murder" of Dumbledore may yet turn out to be one 
more misinterpretation, as so many seemingly obvious 
things (Sirius the murderer, Scabbers the innocent rat,
Moody the DADA teacher) have turned out to be such. At
least until we read DH, just about any version of Snape
could turn out to be the reality. 

Julie