On the perfection of moral virtues.

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169018

Carol responds:
> 
> But Snape *was* in prsonal danger in SS/PS. He was injured by Fluffy
> trying to thwart Quirrell and could have been killed. (Exactly why 
> heentered the corridor at that point has never been clear to me.) 
> And he was in danger for having saved Harry's life because 
> Voldemort knew he did it. (And before anyone argues that Hermione 
> saved Harry's life,she only did so under the mistaken idea that 
> snape was cursing Harry's broom and by setting fire to his robes, 
> she accidentally caused Quirrell to lose eye contact with Harry. 
> Had Snape not been performing the countercurse, there would have 
> been no Harry for her to accidentally save. If anything, the two of 
> them together saved his life.)
> 
> Possibly Snape didn't know or suspect what was in Quirrell's head, 
> but he's a Legilimens and he also knew that Quirrell hadn't 
> previously worn a turban. I think "where your loyalties lie" 
> indicates not only that he knows Quirrell's loyalties don't lie 
> with Dumbledore, he also has a very clear and accurate idea that 
> Quirrell is trying to steal the Stone for Voldemort.
<snip>

Dana:
According to Snape himself he did not know LV was in the back of 
Quirrell's head and he considered Quirrell himself a mediocre wizard. 
We see that Voldemort is not only a suburb legilimens but a good 
occlumens as well so don't you think he would be able to keep Snape 
out of Quirrell's head? According to Snape himself he thought 
Quirrell was going after the stone for his own personal greed. And at 
this moment there is nothing to counter Snape's own view as being a 
lie. It is just an assumption on your part that he knew DD was hiding 
the stone from Voldemort and thus Quirrell getting it for him. There 
is absolutely no indication in canon that DD ever confided in Snape 
about anything. DD might have had the suspicion that it was LV trying 
to steal the Stone but there is certainly no indication that anyone 
else knew this too. 

Hermione might have saved Harry by accidentally knocking Quirrell 
over and breaking his eye contact but she nevertheless did save 
Harry. I do not understand that Snape's attempt to thwart Quirrell 
and not being able to watch all three heads of Fluffy at the same 
time is him suddenly trying to safe the WW from Voldemort at great 
personal risk but Hermione's attempt to save Harry isn't. Quirrell 
could have tried to kill her next for her thwarting his plan to deal 
with Harry. 

Snape shouldn't have gone to DD with his suspicions about Quirrell 
instead of acting out alone. Harry would never have been in danger in 
the first place if he had done that and Hermione wouldn't have needed 
to accidentally save Harry's life because of it, not even to mention 
Quirrell getting DD out of Hogwarts providing a way for Harry to face 
him. 

It wasn't even enough for Snape to tell DD about Quirrell after he 
made an attempt on Harry's life and you claim that Snape's counter 
curses would have actually saved Harry but Harry's broom got higher 
and higher even with his muttering them. So if Harry hadn't held on 
by his own strength then he would have fallen a longer distance to 
the ground would that have saved him? It is always interesting to see 
that other people's attempt to save someone is just plain luck and 
nothing they actively did but Snape actions were deliberate even if 
he indeed deliberately put everyone in that danger in the first place 
by withholding information. 

 Carol:
> Snape was in grave danger from Voldemort whether he knew it or not,
> and I think he did know it. He was also in grave danger when he
> returned to Voldemort with his prepared cover story (which is how I
> read "If you are ready, if you are prepared") for his actions 
relating
> to Quirrell (and reasons for not being in the graveyard).
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, indeed isn't it interesting that Snape had his story for LV 
ready in just two hours or actually less because it took sometime for 
Harry to return, deal with Barty and then DD asking him, to me this 
is actually an indication that he started to think about it when he 
felt LV summoning his DEs but before DD even asked him to return. 

Besides he was in grave danger not returning to LV anyway so his best 
chances were with going back to him. It wasn't him going in as a spy 
that caused him to endure a bigger danger because of it. He either 
faced LV willingly or paid with his life for not returning at all 
just like Karkaroff. DD might worry about Snape because he truly 
believed Snape was in his pockets all those years but Snape certainly 
didn't, he had already had his story ready even before he knew DD was 
going to ask him and sure it would have caused him some suspense but 
as he boosts to Bella he was sure that his (cover or true) story was 
something LV was willing to buy and if he didn't then he was not 
facing a different risk then he was going to face for not going back 
at all. 

So the only thing that remains questionable, did he really go back to 
LV because DD asked him too or did he go to save his own life. 
According to Snape it was both because going on DD's order was part 
of his excuse for not showing up earlier but I'm sure he would have 
wiggled his way out of that one too. 

Carol:
> He also placed himself in grave danger by facing a werewolf about to
> transform and a man he thought had betrayed the Potters and murdered
> thirteen people in PoA. The danger from the werewolf, at least, was
> very real.
<snip>

Dana: 
Really and him seeing Lupin on the map just seconds before and going 
in to see Sirius, while not knowing Sirius is an animagus Lupin was 
no threat to, was not something Snape could reduce to Lupin not being 
in his werewolf form? And him hiding under the cloak for more then 10 
minutes while assuming Lupin could turn into a werewolf at any second 
did not put the lives of three students in danger, even knowing Lupin 
would not be a tame werewolf for forgetting to take his potion? 

The only man that saved anyone that night from werewolf Lupin was 
Sirius by getting werewolf Lupin away from them all. And it is never 
stated that Lupin could not kill an animal just that he posed no 
treat to them becoming a werewolf. In their schooldays Sirius and 
James were always together so Sirius could not have known if he would 
be able to deal with Lupin alone but he nevertheless did. And the 
only two that could not have run for it were Ron and Snape. 

Snape again put the lives of all of them in danger by not going to DD 
telling him Lupin did not take his potion or that he believed Sirius 
was in the Shrieking Shack. No he messed that up by constantly 
nagging about Lupin all year and DD not wanting to hear another word 
about it.  

He also could have known that both Lupin and Sirius were no treat 
after him listening in on the conversation for more then 10 minutes. 
He could also know from Lupin's absence that the story Sirius, Harry 
and Hermione were telling was true because he knew Lupin was absent 
because he transformed. And no one having any werewolf injuries would 
be proof that someone did get Lupin away from them all but he went 
and tried to hurry the process of getting Sirius's soul sucked anyway 
and he went against DD as well. He even tells Fudge he hopes DD is 
not going to be a problem. 

DD vouched for Snape when he needed him and the story of Wormtail was 
already known to him by that time but he still did not want to listen 
and if DD hadn't been there then Snape would have ended up in 
Azkanban but when DD does that for someone else then Snape suddenly 
needs to remind DD that Sirius tried to kill him. Did he forget how 
many lives he put on the line when he brought LV the prophecy? I 
guess so. Like with himself there must have been something that made 
DD believe Sirius story and so it should have been enough for Snape 
just as he expects of anyone else that DD's trust in him should be 
enough for them to trust him without further explanation.  

Snape never went to the Shrieking Shack because he wanted to keep 
Harry (or any other student) safe from a murderer and a werewolf, he 
was still trying to get his ultimate revenge on the marauders and 
when he could not get Sirius, he outed Lupin's secret. And if he 
actually had wanted to keep the student body safe from a werewolf 
then he should have brought the potion Lupin forgot, before wanting 
to drag him to the castle or he should have suggested leaving Lupin 
in the Shack instead. But maybe he was not kidding when he said that 
they didn't have to go that far and he would have let the Dementor's 
have both of them in front of three students. 



Carol:
> We don't know *exactly* how much personal danger he's
> placed himself in, but we know (unless we choose to read the one
> Voldemort believes has left him forever differently than Snape 
> himself reads it) that as of the end of GoF, he was in danger of 
> being killed by Voldemort, and only Occlumency and a gift for 
> creating plausible cover stories saved him. We know that he spied 
> for Dumbledore "at great personal risk," which surely means the 
> peril of death if Voldemort found out. He's doing the same thing 
> from the end of GoF onward, again risking death by sending the 
> Order to the MoM. (I won't even talk about the risk he's facing now 
> from both sides.)
<snip>

Dana:
We know that in the first VW he had the protection of both LV and DD 
because what ever side would win Snape had played his cards right. He 
was with DD on LV's orders so his so-called defection never put him 
at real risk (Bella confirms this in Spinner's End) and we see that 
he never defected truly because he never sold out his fellow DEs by 
providing the MoM with their names, or at least he never provided 
evidence of it openly that could harm him later. The great personal 
risk, is what DD states Snape did but at this moment the only info 
Snape seemed to have provided is that LV was going to target the 
Potters. He never got the name of the spy that was working for LV for 
more then a year that provided important information about the 
Potters movements. 

To be honest LV summoning his DEs in GoF to witness his return and 
him mentioning all their names doesn't give the impression that no 
one knew, who was who in the first war. I do not know were the idea 
came from that LV kept his DEs in the dark about their fellow DEs. 
I might have missed it in the books but with Sirius specifically 
mentioning that he heard things about Wormtail in Azkaban makes me 
think Snape knew this too but he never told DD this information 
because it could have only come from him and he would have risked his 
cover if he had done so. 

Wormtail already having the Dark Mark before LV regained his body 
also indicates to me that he already was a DE in the first war. The 
whole SK fiasco could never have happened if DD knew who had been the 
spy in the Potters inner circle. Snape might have made himself think 
that it was Sirius who betrayed the Potters but he might have had a 
hand in that too by not revealing the identity of the spy. So for me 
all those personal risks DD are referring too are still Snape taking 
calculated risks. Letting himself be ordered to go to DD and doing 
the same by letting himself be ordered to return to LV's side. And at 
this moment we only have DD's claim that Snape remorse was about how 
LV interpreted the prophecy and not that Snape had remorse for 
joining LV's side. 

If Snape risked his life by sending the Order to the MoM then why 
isn't he dead? No one could have notified the Order except Snape and 
DD showing up after the Order would make LV know it wasn't DD himself 
that notified them. And no other teacher could have notified the 
Order and then be able to tell them were Harry had gone to because 
even the Order did not know LV's plan to lure Harry there. 

It was only Snape that knew this information. So why isn't he dead? 
He would have proven then and there that he is still in DD's pocket 
and LV is not the forgiving kind. And the UV plan to make Snape kill 
DD indeed might have been a plan of LV to torture Snape but it was 
still Snape's own choice to take it. And LV could only have made him 
do it by making the suggestion to Snape that he was going to ask it 
of him any way. So in that case Snape would still have done it 
because he cherished his own life above anyone else's. DD would never 
have given Snape the order to take an UV to kill him and take away 
Harry's only protection against LV. Snape might consider himself to 
be a great wizard but I do not think DD would think Snape would be 
able to handle LV by his lonesome. 

I do have to correct on thing I said before about the argument in the 
forest thought. DD did not want to pull out Snape as a spy. To me it 
actually says that DD wanted Snape to go back to LV to find out more 
information about what he was planning. And Snape telling DD that he 
takes Snape's personal risks for granted and then DD saying to Snape 
that he agreed to do it and then Snape saying he doesn't want to do 
it anymore. Makes a lot of sense to me but of course that is just my 
opinion. 

JMHO

Dana