On the perfection of moral virtues.

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 169040

> > Mike previously:
> > Which version of Snape do you like?
> 
> Leslie41 now:
> 
> Actually, my Snape is neither of those versions, because the 
> assertion that he should have brought the goblet with him is flawed 
> in that it doesn't see things from Snape's perspective.  Snape 
> believes he's going into a confrontation with Lupin and the man he 
> thinks he's protecting, the outlaw and dangerous Azkaban escapee, 
> Sirius Black. 

Mike answering with some of my previous:
> > Also, remember he was only aware of Lupin heading for the 
> > Womping Willow, he knew not of the trio, Black, nor Pettigrew 
> > already in the Shack.

Snape saw Lupin and only Lupin on the Map. It presupposes a lot to 
think that Snape knew Sirius was already in the Shack. In fact I 
believe his exact words were: "Not even I dreamed you would have the 
nerve to use this old place as your hideout -" (PoA p.359, US) Since 
canon tells us that Snape didn't think Padfoot was in there, why 
should I believe that Snape thought he was going into a confrontation 
with anyone other than Lupin?



> Leslie41 continues:
> So, um, what point would there be in bringing the potion?  Snape 
> believes he's going into a fight.  Enemies do not usually hold off 
> battling to imbibe potions, even potions that might keep them from 
> turning murderous.  In fact, Snape might even think that Lupin 
> deliberately didn't take it.  

Mike:
Why would Snape think he's going into a fight? Has Lupin failed to 
take his potion at any other time during the past year? Has Lupin 
given Snape any reason to believe that he "deliberately" failed to 
take his potion tonight? Is there any other reason, besides a 
delusional Snape, for Snape to think that tonight Lupin has decided 
to forgo the potion that makes his transformations bearable? Lupin 
explained how painful his transformations were without the Wolfsbane, 
do you think that Snape is unaware of the painfulness? It looks to me 
that "your" Snape thinks the worse of Lupin without any proof. And he 
is *wrong* about just about everything, isn't he?



> Leslie41:
> From his perspective, Snape's best hope is to get there 
> immediately before the moon comes up and subdue the prisoners--
> or rather turn them over to the Dementors.  And he has plenty of 
> time to do that (somehow I don't think that even a werewolf 
> would be a match for them).

Mike:
I've addressed the plural "prisoners". As to dealing only with Lupin 
(the only one Snape is following), by what authority does Snape get 
to decide that Lupin is an outlaw? They are both teachers at the same 
school, neither has authority over the other. Where does Snape get 
off deciding that Lupin is breaking some law then tying and gagging 
him? This has always got my goat, that Snape has bestowed upon 
himself the moral authority to silence Lupin, because he says so.

And if Snape has plenty of time to subdue Lupin before he transforms, 
why doesn't he have plenty of time to bring him his potion? Once 
again, he has no knowledge of anyone else. Whatever else he may think 
is going on, why not at least bring the potion?

If he's so sure that he's in for a fight (still not seeing how he 
logically comes to that conclusion) then the potion languishes in his 
robes, so what? But a demented Snape, out looking for some kind of 
revenge, ... him I can see saying "screw the potion, I can get that 
Lupin now."

And if his best option is to subdue Lupin before he transforms, why 
does he hide under the cloak and listen to Lupin rehash their 
schoolboy days for what seems like forever (to me)?



> Leslie41:
> Snape wrongly believes the worst about Lupin and Black, but it is 
> no less than what most everyone else believes in the Wizarding 
> World, with regard to both of them.  

Mike:
I see. Lupin is a werewolf, therefore it's OK to assume he is a 
killer. Disregarding that he has killed noone as far as we know. 
Disregarding that he has taught at Hogwarts for an entire year, and 
taken his wolfsbane during the entire time. Disregarding that 
Dumbledore was the one that hired him, and that the Ministry, however 
reluctantly, has allowed the hire. 

No, Snape knows better than everyone and he's going to prove it. 
After all, he's the "Potions Master" at Hogwarts and that gives him 
special dispensation to disregard everyone elses authority and take 
matters into his own hands. I ask again, where does Snape get the 
authority to act unilaterally?



> Leslie41:
> (And Snape has far more reason to believe the worst about them.)

Mike:
Ah, the real crux of the matter. Snape hates the Marauders, therefore 
that gives him the authority to decide what's going on and he doesn't 
have to listen to anyone. The Marauders picked on him when they were 
in school and that makes them criminals not worth listening to. He 
gets to bind and gag Lupin because anything he might say is a lie, 
not worth hearing.


> Leslie41:  
> <snip the stuff about Lupin being fired>
> It seems to me that Snape's critics often seem to view his behavior 
> with the knowledge and understanding that *they* have of the other 
> characters (taking Harry's perspective, to to speak), not the 
> knowledge that Snape himself has.

Mike:
Actually, I'm a Snape critic, and I think I was looking at Snape's 
behavior based on what *Snape knew*, not what I knew. Snape didn't 
know Sirius nor the kids were in the Shack. Snape had nothing other 
than his own prejudices to inform him that Lupin was up to no good 
that evening. Snape had no reason to believe he was going into a 
fight other than his own expectations that Lupin was actively helping 
Sirius. And he was basing that on his schoolboy grudge, not on 
anything approaching legal or moral proof. 

And upon reaching the Shack, Snape actively disregards what's going 
on in front of him, and acts upon his schoolboy grudge. Remember, all 
of the kids have their wands out, Lupin's is stored away, and Sirius 
has no wand. Yet the kids are listening to the story, questioning it, 
but clearly not "Confunded". Does Snape take a logical approach or 
does he completely disregard what the kids have concluded deserves 
hearing out? I say the latter.

Mike