Snape's involvement in the murder of Sirius

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 169057

Gavin:
<snipping>
> The ultimate conclusion is that Snape did not hear the part of the 
> exchange in the Shrieking Shack where Sirius was exonerated, but 
> he did come in quite a little earlier than when he threw off the 
> Invisibility Cloak in my interpretation.
<snip canon>
> My view is that this is Snape entering. It is before Remus 
> starts to explain about his school days and how he came to 
> Hogwarts, but after the exposition on the night of the Potters' 
> deaths.
> 
> Snape appears within the room from under the IC on p. 262 after 
> much information has been revealed, including, but not limited 
> to the Marauders becoming Animagi.

Jen: Double agents need to be very attuned to picking up all sorts of 
information and understanding nuances so it's likely Snape heard the 
entire conversation going on while he was present.  He didn't get to 
hear the part about the switch in Secret Keepers though, and my 
thinking is even when Snape finds out Peter is alive and an active DE 
later on, Snape still wouldn't know the entire story and continues to 
blame Sirius for the deaths of the Potters.  

That second night in the Shack years later was almost a reincarnation 
of how the Prank night occurred from the information we have so far:  
Snape is following the Maruaders to the Shack, trying to get the 
goods on them and turn them in once and for all.  He gets information 
only to take it to Dumbledore and discover Dumbledore knows as much 
as he does and doesn't believe the rest, that the Maruaders' story--
along with the 'new' Marauders in Snape's eyes, the Trio--have 
Dumbledore's ears and assistance and Snape is left out in the cold 
once again.

The idea behind that being Snape really did snap and was 
as 'unbalanced' as Fudge predicted but Dumbledore couldn't see it.  
It was another misstep on Dumbledore's part with Snape, a 
continuation of the belief that all old wounds can be healed which 
proved to be a tragic mistake at the end of OOTP.  My guess is the 
Prank and DD's handling of it led Snape in large part to choose 
Voldemort's side the first time around and this time Snape decided 
not to mess around anymore, that he would deal with the Marauders 
himself.  And the next day he does deal with Lupin by letting it be 
known he's a werewolf.  There's no canon for what Dumbledore was 
planning to do about Lupin or that Snape consulted with him or Lupin 
prior to telling everyone, he just acted on his own to get Lupin not 
only out of Hogwarts but out of work and society, period. 

Dana:
> Although it is pure speculation on my part I did find it 
> interesting to see that in HBP, JKR added two stories of memory 
> planting to cover up who really was responsible for the crimes 
> committed and I'm seriously wondering if that is what happened with 
> Kreacher too. I do not have my books on hand but from what I 
> remembered didn't both LV's uncle and Mrs Smith's house-elf believe 
> that they were guilty?  LV did that when he was still young so I 
> have no trouble believing that he has improved memory planting 
> since he last done it.

Jen:  Both Winky and Morfin believed they were guilty and offered 
full confessions.  An implanted memory could have happened although 
Dumbledore was well into his research on Voldemort's life by then and 
might have looked for such a thing with Kreacher.  I wouldn't rule it 
out as a possibility though!

Dana:
> One could think how could he get to Kreacher to even have done this 
> besides Kreacher going to Narcissa on his own? Well I always found 
> it strange that DD could summon Kreacher in the beginning of HBP, 
> while he is not Kreacher's master and if he could have done it then 
> so could LV. 

Jen:  Huh, that IS interesting.  Never considered how Dumbledore did 
that.  He's using some type of magic and not actually calling his 
name as Harry does during HBP when he's the master, so it's somehow 
magically forcing Kreacher to appear and not the enchantment the 
elves operate under to serve a master.

> Dana:
> There is only one problem with the idea that Snape could not have 
> known the story, that was told in the aftermath of PoA by the time 
> of OotP, being true and that is Wormtail helping LV to regain a 
> body, he would have known about that because when he went back to 
> LV,  he either would have been told about it or Wormtail was still 
> there. And this would mean Wormtail was indeed alive and not killed 
> by Sirius and this would thus make the story that was told by 
> Sirius, Harry and Hermione automatically to truth and nothing but 
> the truth and if LV told his DEs about Sirius being an animagus, 
> then this too would confirmed the story. 

Jen:  I explained some of my thinking in my first comments, that 
Snape could know Peter was alive and a DE and *still* hold Sirius 
accountable as the SK.  Snape's opinion of Wormtail's skills isn't 
much better than his friends at Hogwarts if Spinner's End is an 
indication (even if Snape found out Peter was the one to kill the 
thirteen Muggles).  Snape's concern would only be the Marauder who 
ruined his attempt to undo his own mistake of passing the prophecy, 
imo.

Dana:
> And besides since when would it be noble of Snape to just kill the 
> people DD trusts. If it wasn't for DD almost no one would have 
> trusted Snape so would have been okay for them to have killed Snape 
> because they might think he is still working for LV? 

Jen:  I didn't say I thought it was noble! ;)  I was trying to 
explain what Snape's thinking might have been to justify what he was 
doing.  He operates with his own moral code is my opinion, not the 
one Dumbledore operates with, and that means sometimes he acts 
outside of what Dumbledore would want to see happen (gave the example 
of the UV as a speculation, and outing Lupin as werewolf above).  All 
the Order members do that to some extent because Dumbledore doesn't 
run a dictatorial regime like LV does and gives his underlings a wide 
berth to make choices and succeed or fail.

Dana:
> Killing is never good and therefore in JKR's world there can never 
> be good intentions for killing anyone not even for the greater good 
> and if Snape would take it up on himself to get rid of someone that 
> was on his side out of revenge then he is a liability to the Order 
> and he betrayed DD's trust because his personal revenge was more 
> important and because Sirius could only be lured out of hiding in 
> an attempt to protect Harry, Snape put Harry at risk to just to get 
> what he personally wanted. That makes Snape a really bad guy that 
> had his hatred for a person make him to very immoral things. Snape 
> is like Mike states in a different post not someone that would have 
> had any authority to make that judgement over Sirius. And it can 
> never be for the greater good to just go out and go kill your 
> fellow man in the fight against evil because that is what evil does 
> and you can't fight evil with evil and it is not what DD was about. 

Jen:  I agree with you in theory but not in actul canon, I guess?  
Snape didn't kill Sirius himself for one thing; I'm saying he might 
have passed useful information to Voldemort and the Malfoys to set up 
the conditions that occurred.  And I'd guess Snape didn't know 
Voldemort's full plan re: Harry just like he didn't know what LV 
would make of the prophecy or Voldemort's entire plan with Draco in 
HBP.  

I was thinking more that Snape passed info about Sirius being an 
animagus and his relationship with Harry in the hopes it might lead 
to Sirius getting caught or killed (he doesn't appear to care that 
Sirius died in HBP), but not actually planning how that would happen 
or knowing how vast the consequences would end up being. (A little 
like Harry. Ironic?)  That's his pattern so far in my reading 
anyway.  Last I'd say that for all Snape knew, his taunts alone would 
be enough to lure Sirius out of hiding.  He tries often enough 
according to what Sirius told Harry when Harry first arrived at 
Grimmauld and then we see Snape's taunts in action over Christmas.

Jen