Was Ministry going to punish Snape if kills Sirius on site? WAS: On perfection o

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 169078

> JW:
> The reference to "dead or alive" was on a wanted poster in the 
> movie.  I too can find no mention of this in the book.
>


Alla:

Yep, it was in that medium, not in canon :)  There is a poster in 
Hogsmeade which also says nothing about deadly force.


"By Order of Ministry of Magic
 Customers are reminded that until further notice, Dementors will be 
patrolling the streets of Hogsmeade every night after sundown. This 
measure had been put in place for the safety of Hogsmeade residents 
and will be lifted upon recapture of Sirius Black. It is therefore 
advisable that you complete your shopping before Nightfall.
Merry Christmas." - PoA, p.148, british edition, paperback.


Alla:

So, here as well we see nothing to the effect of - good citisens, 
please take your wands and let's go hunting that Sirius Black. Nope, 
it reads to me as Dementors are here to capture him, do not 
interfere.


> > Alla:
> > 
> > I think this is related to the question I asked in another 
thread. 
> > Could you give some canon that Snape would be a hero for killing 
> > Sirius? Not for capturing, but for killing. Is there any 
indication 
> > in the books that people were allowed to use lethal force 
against 
> > Sirius Black and not just being not sent to Azkaban, but 
rewarded 
> > for it.
> 
> zgirnius:
> It seems a reasonable inference, given that Sirius had been 
sentenced 
> to summary Kissing upon his capture, a sentence that the Dementors 
were 
> free to carry out without any further instructions from a 
government 
> representative. And from his description in public communications 
of no 
> less that the Minister for Magic himself as "a danger to anyone 
who 
> crosses him, magic or Muggle". Surely, if Snape had insisted he 
was a 
> danger to him and three Hogwarts students, one of whom had already 
had 
> his leg broken by Black, Fudge would not have argued the point.
>


Alla:

Reasonable inference? Sure, but it seems that no mentioning of 
something in canon makes for even stronger inference, no?

And it is not mentioned, like at all. I mean maybe it is, but I keep 
asking to refer me to the pages and nobody did it yet :)


"... The public is warned that Black is armed and extremely
dangerous. A
special hot line has been set up, and any sighting of Black should be
reported immediately."– PoA, ch.2, p.18, british edition, paperback.


I mean, this is Muggle public, but still? Anything more than that, 
maybe?

One would think that Wizarding population is encouraged to do more 
than that - say fire a nice Avada and be done?

Does Fudge do that in that speech that I brought up upthread as well?

Nope, he just mentions that public lives in fear and he is dangerous.

So, I think that the argument that witches and wizards are not 
expected to use deadly force against Black is reasonable as well.


Now, could Snape claim self defense and prevail? Sure, absolutely. 
he could have done that. But to me this is a very long way to go 
from arguing that Snape will be a hero for killing Sirius. I would 
agree that he has a chance to be called acquitted after the hearing, 
but not hero, LOL.

So, sure I am buying that Fudge may have bought Snape story. If 
Dumbledore would not have contradicted such story that is. Fudge 
really does not appear to stick with Snape for long in PoA, does he?

But my question is why would Snape want to **try**? To risk that all?

Why would he want to risk a chance of the hearing? 

Much nicer to bring Black to castle and watch how Dementors kiss 
him, I would say.


To make a long story short, I guess I am arguing against Snape 
demonstrating some sort of not self serving restraint in the Shack.

I believe that the only reason that he did not kill Sirius and Lupin 
is because he did not want to take a chance and be tried for using 
whatever curses he would have use to kill them - maybe unforgivables 
or maybe not.

The last  couple paragraphs are of course speculation ( why Snape 
did not kill them right away), but I think that it is based on canon 
not saying that people are allowed to kill Black on site.

So, I guess I call it very canon based speculation :)


> Alla:
> > So, my conjecture is that since it is not specifically said that 
> > wizarding population was allowed to use lethal force, they would 
be 
> > punished for using it against Sirius Black same way as against 
any 
> > other person.
> 
> Leslie:
> 
> Well, no one speaks of "capturing" Voldemort, do they?  The 
> understanding is that Voldemort will be *killed*.  Obliterated.  
The 
> wizarding population is obviously allowed to use deadly force 
against 
> him.  At the end of HBP, Harry himself specifically states:  "I'm 
the 
> one who's going to kill him."  Then Harry also specifically drops 
a 
> very clear hint that if Severus Snape shows up, he's going to kill 
> him as well.  
> 
> So yes, I would assume that deadly force, under the right 
> circumstances, is acceptable.  


Alla:

Well, I am talking about using deadly force against very 
specific "criminal" Sirius Black, not Voldemort and as far as I can 
see canon is silent on allowing to use deadly force against this 
specific "criminal". There are three places  at least where it could 
have been 
put in and it was not, so I am going to assume that nothing of the 
sort was allowed. I guess it is agree to disagree time.


But sure I agree with you that use of the deadly force under the 
right circumstances may be allowed. The question for me is whether 
authorities considered the capture of Sirius Black to be the right 
time and right place. I do not think they did, but I would happily 
accept canon page stating the contrary. 

I have to say also that I consider Harry's desire to kill Snape to 
be rather weak indicator that it is allowed. It is Harry's wish, 
which I totally understand, but for all I know he may very nicely 
end in Azkaban if he does that.  IMO of course.



Alla.