Snape's supposed involvement in the murder of Sirius

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 169112

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Neri" <nkafkafi at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Carol responds:
> ><snip> 
> > As far as I can see, the only piece of information that Snape could
> > have added to this wealth of knowledge and used to claim a share of
> > the credit in Black's death to Bellatrix, who knew quite well who
> > actually killed Black, is that he had seen Black at Hogwarts in
> > Animagus form shortly before DD sent him to "return" to LV.
> 
> Neri:
> I don't think such information would be enough for Snape to claim a
> share of the credit, not in front of Bella (who killed Black herself)
> and Narcissa (Kreacher's contact woman). Moreover, Snape phrases his
> words to Bella in a way that suggests a difference between his Vance
> information and his Black information:  
> 
> "The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on
> the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture
> and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of
> Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."
> 
> The difference is in Bella's previous knowledge about these two pieces
> of information: she could only guess about the first, but knew for
> sure about the second, or Snape wouldn't be able to use "certainly". I
> have to agree with Jen: it's implied that Snape's information was
> important in disposing of Sirius and that the two sisters (or at least
> Bella) already know this.
> 
> 
> > And, again, there was no specific plot to kill Black. The plot
> > was to lure Harry to the Mom under the *pretense* that Black had been
> > captured.
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> We don't know that there wasn't a plot to kill Black. As I've pointed
> out here before several times, the logical way for Voldemort to plan
> his operation was to tell Snape to warn the Order a little too late,
> so that they'd rush to the DoM to save Harry and be caught in an
> ambush of either DEs or Aurors. If this is the way it was planned then
> Snape would be able to claim later that his information helped in
> disposing of Black without giving away too much too soon to the
> reader. It may have been Snape's own secret plan to prevent Harry from
> going to the DoM (in my theory because of the debt) while sending
> instead Sirius and possibly some other Order members Snape isn't
> exactly fond of to get caught or killed.
> 
> 
> Neri
>

Carol responds:
In which case, how do you explain that Snape specifically requested
Black to remain at home and wait for Dumbledore? It's canon that
Wormtail could and would have presented the information that Black was
an Animagus (which presumably includes his exact appearance, which
Snape has seen all of once and wormtail too many times to count).
Black's being in the Order would be old news; Voldemort would know it
from VW1.

What else besides "Black was at Hogwarts in dog form" could Snape tell
him? Maybe that he was sent to Lupin's to recruit "the old crowd"
(most of whom probably still thought that he was the "murderin'
traitor")? Snape could, in such a case, truthfully claim that he had
provided information on Black. He could also, BTW, have named Emmeline
Vance as a member of the reconstituted Order (which seems like the
sort of information he would need to provide to maintain his cover and
gain what passes for Voldie's trust) and claim (with some truth) that
that information led to her capture and death. He need not have
provided any more information than that.

Bellatrix, remember, is on the outs with Voldie, and even if she
weren't, she wouldn't dare to say to ask Voldemort if Snape's
assertions are true. To ask such a question would imply that she
believes Snape is lying to Voldemort. Such a statement would
contradict Voldemort's view of himself as the world's greatest
Legilimens, to whom no one can lie without detection. 

I think Bellatrix senses that Snape is telling her a mixture of
partial truths and lies, and when he asks rhetorically, "You think he
is mistaken [in believing me]? Or that I have somehow hoodwinked him?
fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished
Legilimens the world has ever seen?" (HBP Am. ed.)

Bellatrix, of course, says nothing. To say "no" would mean that she
believes Snape, which she doesn't. If she says "yes," she's admitting
that Snape can "hoodwink" the Dark Lord through his superb Occlumency
or by some other means. Snape, having won the point, changes the
subject. Bellatrix, unable to go to the Dark Lord with her suspicions
(especially after Snape makes sure that she's involved in the
Unbreakable Vow and can't use it against her and Narcissa), works
behind his back to thwart him, teaching Draco rudimentary Occlumency
and (IMO) planting the idea in his mind that Snape is trying to steal
his glory.

But I see absolutely no reason why Bellatrix, who doubts virtually
every explanation Snape gives her but has no way of confirming their
truth or falsity, would "know" or believe that Snape in some way
provided information that led to her dear cousin's unplanned death.

What information could that be? Wormtail and Kreacher together
provided everything Voldemort needed to know if he were indeed
plotting Black's death, but why even bother? The poor guy can't go
anywhere without being recognized. (Snape tells him that Lucius Malfoy
saw him on Platform 9 3/4.) Whatever is the point of going after such
a seemingly useless Order member? 

Now using Harry's affection for Black to trap *Harry* is another
matter, but that's not what Snape is claiming to have had a hand in.
In fact, when Bellatrix and Narcissa start flinging the blame around
for the failure of that mission, he deflects the argument but stating
that it's pointless to assign blame. (Exactly. If they start analyzing
that fiasco too closely, they might figure out who sent the Order to
rescue Harry and friends.)

Carol, who thinks that we should stay with canon here, and canon
blames Kreacher for revealing the Harry/Sirius relationship