Snape's involvement in the murder of Sirius

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 169113

> Betsy Hp:
> This is an interesting theory, Jen... *But* (heh, you knew that was 
> coming) I have two big issues with it.

Jen:  I'm shocked, truly I am.  LOL

> Betsy Hp:
> This is issue number one.  I think you're selling house-elves short 
> in general and Kreacher in particular.  I've always read Kreacher's 
> mad act as just that, an act.  Just like every other house-elf 
> we've met in canon, Kreacher has figured out a way to express his 
> unhappiness and do pretty much as he wishes.  He's arranged it so 
> he doesn't have to fake any genuine loyalty to people he sees as 
> desecrating his home.  He's arranged it so he doesn't have to take 
> part in that desecration, and he's arranged it so he can protect 
> what he is able.  And he ran to the "enemy" at the very first 
> opportunity.

Jen:  I went back through and read sections with Kreacher and have to 
agree he makes sense in all the things he says, that he doesn't seem 
confused.  What I also didn't see from him is direct evidence that he 
is noticing the quality or depth of personal relationships.  He makes 
assessments about the actions people in the house are taking or 
extrapolates out from information he has heard but doesn't appear to 
notice anything about how people relate to one another.  Magpie 
mentioned the example of Sirius breaking his mother's heart and to me 
that example is one of many of him repeating information he's heard 
from Mrs. Black or others he respects.  If Mrs. Black was anything as 
dramatic as her portrait appears to be, she likely enumerated all the 
ways Sirius broke her heart and disappointed her to anyone who was in 
listening range. <g>

There are numerous examples of Kreacher repeating information and 
considering what Mrs. Black would say to see him in his current 
situation, but I don't see an example of him connecting the dots 
about relationships between the humans around him.  And when he might 
be able to see this, over Christmas Break when Sirius felt 'delight 
at having the house full again, and especially at having Harry back,' 
Kreacher isn't around to notice.  

> Betsy Hp:
> Or, maybe Kreacher sees Hermione's sympathy as the DADA class saw 
> Umbridge's sympathy: an attempt to indoctrinate him away from his 
> personal beliefs and loyalties.  I do think Hermione was sincere in 
> her pity (whereas I doubt Umbridge was all that sincere in hers), 
> but that overly kind, ignoring of stated beliefs, can come across 
> as pretty condesending when you're on the receiving end.

Jen:  I agree with everything here.  My point was that Kreacher can't 
see distinctions enough to even tell Hermione is being condescending 
if she is.  He evaluates her only from her blood status.  He's just 
not showing much nuance!  

Carol:
> Exactly. Voldemort knows as of the first chapter of GoF and probably
> before that Wormtail is a rat Animagus ("You know that I can 
> disguise myself most effectively," Wormtail says). Surely, Wormtail
> has told him the whole story of his escape from his former friends,
> the dog Animagus and the werewolf. (If he didn't tell it 
> voluntarily, Voldemort, being a Legilimens and fond of the 
> Cruciatus Curse, would have forced the whole story out of him. 
> Moreover, he would have told Voldemort (perhaps when Harry was a 
> baby) that Black was Harry's godfather.

Jen:  It's always okay to speculate such a scenario and it could very 
well be true.  The fact remains that we don't have Peter giving this 
information to Voldemort anywhere in the story and Snape himself says 
he passed information to Voldemort that helped dispose of Sirius 
Black.  That may prove to be completely untrue but it's the only 
canon about the passing of information on Sirius.

Carol:
> Unlike Snape, who arrived late and then was knocked unconscious,
> Wormtail heard the entire conversation between Lupin, Black, and HRH
> in the Shrieking Shack and afterwards, including Black's offer to 
> let Harry live with him, which occurs while he is in human form 
> before his escape. And we can be pretty sure that Voldemort 
> obtained every scrap of information possible from him, and 
> Wormtail, no Occlumens, so far as we know, and terrified of 
> Voldemort yet having no place else to go, would have willingly told 
> him.

Jen:  Scabbers was squeaking and struggling to escape in rat form, 
even going so far as to bite Ron, and in human form Peter was 
begging.  I don't read Scabbers or Peter sitting quietly and 
listening to the story as Snape was doing during the time he was in 
the shack, time that included the story about the animagus.  

And about Voldemort caring what went on in the shack - I can't see 
this.  When Peter returns to him he is obsessively focused on how to 
obtain human form again and hatching the plot that will become part 
of his rebirthing.  We know that from Crouch's explanation under 
Veritaserum.  Voldemort isn't interested in Peter and his schoolboy 
friends or how Peter escaped; his only completely absorbing interest 
in Peter is that he finally has a servant to do his bidding and help 
him regain power.  

> Betsy Hp:
> I agree with the second part of your statement, but totally 
> disagree with the first part.  I think Snape's loyalty and the 
> reason Dumbledore trusts him completely comes from the fact that
> both Snape and Dumbledore share pretty much the same beliefs.  

Jen:  I went back to read the times Dumbledore talks about trusting 
Snape.  The times I could find, in GOF, OOTP and HBP, the context is 
the same thing, something to the effect of Harry asking, how do you 
know he is loyal to us, to our side, to you, Dumbledore?  And each 
time Dumbledore states his standard phrase.  Given the way Dumbledore 
says what is essential to say and no more, my belief now is 
Dumbledore's answer is saying:  I trust Severus Snape is loyal to me 
and not to Voldemort.

That's all Dumbledore needs to know to trust Snape, that he is on 
Dumbledore's side and not Voldemort's and that he will never return 
to Voldemort.  It doesn't mean he thinks Snape is a great guy, that 
he has unimpeachable morals, that he can't lie or make choices 
Dumbledore doesn't approve of or anything of that nature.  DH may 
bring information to change my mind and more elaboration by 
Dumbledore in some post-humous form, but until then, Dumbledore's 
statement of trust refers to Snape's loyalty only given the context 
of how it is asked.

Jen:
> I could see Snape considering the 'disposal' of Black to be an act 
> for the greater good of the cause regardless of how Dumbledore
> might view it.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> But his actions in the Shack in PoA prove this idea wrong.  Snape 
> begs for a "reason" to take down Sirius.  Which, IMO, shows just 
> how much like Dumbledore Snape already is.

Jen:  That's before Dumbledore let Snape down again by siding with 
the Marauders and Harry over him just like he did with the Prank.  I 
don't have proof but do think that changed the scenario for Snape.

zgirnius:
> Neither would Snape know any intimate information about the
> progression of their relationship! <snip> Neither would Snape be 
> aware of the relationship as it developed during Harry's time at 12 
> GP. Snape showed up only for Order meetings and did not socialize 
> at all. Nor did he and Harry ever discuss Sirius. Snape could 
> *speculate*, naturally. So could Peter, for that matter. Or 
> Narcissa, with the aid of Kreacher. Or Kreacher might just be able 
> to tell.

Jen:  Dana already pointed this out, but I wanted to elaborate on the 
scene in the kitchen in GP.  I believe that interaction would give 
Snape everything he needed to know about the relationship between 
Harry and Sirius; Snape himself remarked 'how touching' Sirius' 
concern was for Harry.  And Harry breaking the two of them up was 
more reminescent of the brother aspect of their relationship than 
Sirius acting like the father, another bit that came up in the 
explanation about what Voldemort knew or had concluded.  

The incident also fueled Snape's rage and led him to up his taunting 
to a new level, implying that Sirius not only had to stay inside b/c 
of orders but that Sirius actually preferred it that way.  Given what 
Snape knows of Sirius and his history of impulsive behavior, that was 
a sure-fire way to get to Sirius and possibly ensure he would leave 
the house given the proper motivation.  And Snape knows what that 
proper motivation would be after their interaction that day: "If I 
hear you're using these Occlumency lessons to give Harry a hard time, 
you'll have me to answer to." (Occlumency, p. 520, Am. ed.)  If Snape 
or anyone messes with Harry, they will have to answer to Sirius and 
he's not waiting around for them to show up at his door either.

zgirnius:
> I find bizarre the idea that Snape might believe that Sirius was the
> traitor, and yet believe that Dumbledore still trusted him at the 
> end of GoF. Actually, I also find it bizarre that Snape would credit
> Harry with a powerful attachment to the man who betrayed his 
> parents.

Jen:  Snape was given a second chance after joining Voldemort and 
knows Dumbledore believes in people reforming, and it's clear after 
the Shack that Snape believes Sirius can 'hoodwink' people to believe 
him (and that Harry, like his father, is too arrogant to see his 
mistake in trusting Sirius).  But I don't think this scenario is the 
only one, that Snape believes Sirius is the traitor.  There's also 
the possibility Snape simply believes Sirius is a danger to himself 
and others, that he was once a murderer and hasn't changed 'his 
spots' and that Sirius is capable of messing up Dumbledore's plan 
even if Dumbledore is too trusting to see it.  That one actually fits 
Snape's characterization the more I think about it, imo.

Jen