Snape's involvement in the murder of Sirius

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 169141

> In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169076

> Carol:

> Surely, Wormtail has told him the whole story of his escape 
> from his former friends, the dog Animagus and the werewolf. 
> (If he didn't tell it voluntarily, Voldemort, being a 
> Legilimens and fond of the Cruciatus Curse, would have forced 
> the whole story out of him.) Moreover, he would have told
> Voldemort (perhaps when Harry was a baby) that Black was 
> Harry's godfather.

> Unlike Snape, who arrived late and then was knocked unconscious,
> Wormtail heard the entire conversation between Lupin, Black, 
> and HRH in the Shrieking Shack and afterwards, including 
> Black's offer to let Harry live with him, which occurs while 
> he is in human form before his escape.

Goddlefrood:

Why make these assumptions? (Not things of which I'm fond, as 
anyone who reads my posts could ascertain). As a matter of 
canon, of which I'm fond, we do not know exactly what Peter 
told LV, as I note is conceded in a later quoted portion. Peter 
is a character who is all too frequently underestimated.

The rat is powerful enough to blast a street of Muggles, kill 
Cedric with little thought and remain in Animagus form for 12 
years or so. Why then is he always given no credit whatever? 
He is clearly an able wizard, albeit a traitor. Why would he be 
incapable of resisting telling LV everything he knows, 
particularly because at the point where he is in locus parenti
of LV he is hardly threatened by a wizard in foetal form who 
has yet to return to a body?

Snape also is well aware of Sirius's furry little secret and he 
could quite easily have been the one to mention that to LV as 
well as Peter. Why not say that they *both* told LV? They would 
not be very good spies and informers if they hadn't, now would 
they?

Another thing to keep in mind, of course, is that Snape's 
animosity towards Sirius is of gargantuan proportions. He would, 
IMO, waste no time in telling LV, especially if it would be to 
Black's detriment, as it actually was in that Sirius was house 
bound throughout OotP except for his sojourn at the DoM.

Not only all that but also it should be remembered that it is 
Draco at King's Cross who indicates that Sirius's Animagus form 
is known. It would seem more likely that Snape was the informant 
of the Malfoys than Peter.

As to the second paragraph quoted above I suggest that some 
contamination is creeping in from the medium that shall not 
be named. In that medium Snape does burst in suddenly in the 
Shack, however in the books he enters quite a little earlier.

I set out why in a post earlier in this thread and have no 
intention of repeating that once more. What I will say, and 
with a good degree of certainty is that Snape was in the 
bedroom of the Shack for several minutes *before* he took off 
the Invisibility Cloak, thus revealing himself. This is between 
pps. 258 - 262 of the Bloomsbury Paperback Edition of the text.
During those several minutes the company was discussing the 
development of the Animagi forms of the Marauders who assumed 
them.

The above comments of my own apply equally to the events later 
on. Peter was concentrating, IMO, on manufacturing his own 
escape, that he may have overheard other matters in respect of 
Harry and Sirius's conversation outside the Whomping Willow is 
speculation. He possibly did, but it is equally valid to posit, 
as I and others do, that Snape informed LV of Harry's close 
ties to Sirius.

A certain English actor who shall remain nameless has an awful 
lot to answer for, IMO. Snape is not a good man, he may assist 
Harry, but he is far from being virtuous and he *has* been LV's 
spy, otherwise he would not exist at the point in canon now 
reached. Whatever else transpires he's for the chopping block.

> In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169112

> Carol:

> In which case, how do you explain that Snape specifically 
> requested Black to remain at home and wait for Dumbledore? 
> It's canon that Wormtail could and would have presented the 
> information that Black was an Animagus (which presumably 
> includes his exact appearance, which Snape has seen all of 
> once and wormtail too many times to count). Black's being 
> in the Order would be old news; Voldemort would know it
> from VW1.

Goddlefrood:

Snape, as is his wont, was covering himself. It is only his 
own word we have for the matters raised in this quoted portion. 
He's not above lying as is easily ascertained from the known 
ignorance of his true loyalties by either Dumbledore, Lord 
Voldemort, or even both. Severus was certainly not above lying 
then, so why should it be taken as read that he was not lying 
about requesting Sirius to remain at home.

Mr. Multiplicity is most definitely not above lying at Spinner's 
End either. My earlier comments on who told LV about Padfoot 
also refer.

> In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169119

> Carol:

> But we do have canon that Wormtail told the story of his 
> escape(s) to Voldemort though, granted, we don't have the 
> details. He tells his Death Eaters in the graveyard:

> "And then, not even a year ago, when I had almost abandoned 
> hope, it happened at last . . . . a servant returned to me. 
> Wormtail here, who had faked his own death to escape justice, 
> was driven out of hiding by those he had once counted friends 
> and decided to return to his master" (GoF Am. ed. 855-55). 

> So it's not speculation that Wormtail told his story to 
> Voldemort. It's canon, as is Voldemort's knowledge of 
> Wormtail's Animagus form.

Goddlefrood:

The problem with this is that Wormtail as a name was known to 
LV but we have nothing to go on as to when LV came to know 
Peter's nickname.

Breaking down the above quoted material from GoF, firstly:

"And then, not even a year ago, when I had almost abandoned 
hope, it happened at last . . . . a servant returned to me."

This refers to Peter's return to LV, with me so far?

Next:

" Wormtail here, who had faked his own death to escape justice, 
was driven out of hiding by those he had once counted friends 
and decided to return to his master"

Do you see any reference as to Peter telling LV about Sirius 
Black here? Was that not rather Jen's point. Snape is an 
equally valid informant for the Animagus information and 
Harry's fondness for Sirius whether he only ever saw Padfoot 
once or a million times. Seeing or hearing odf Sirius's Animagus 
form even once would be enough for Snape, who I credit with the 
intelligence to know someone becoming an Animagus when he sees 
it *just* once (while not accepting that Snape had only seen 
Sirius as Padfoot once and also repeating that Snape overheard 
the relevant portion of the converstion in the Shack). It would 
be enough for the vindictive Snape, and as far as Sirius is 
concerned Snape is vindictive, to tell LV, notwithstanding 
where Mr. Multiplicity's loyalties lie.

Snape is no shining beacon to hold up as an example of bravery 
to anyone and even if he does turn out to be DDM, which I have 
severe doubts about, he will not, IMO, ever be looked upon as 
a hero by anyone in the *Wizarding World* no matter how superb 
an explanation is offered. Begrudging respect possibly, but 
little more than that.

> Carol, conceding that we're all speculating at this point, 
> but thinking that canon supports some speculations more 
> strongly than others.

Goddlefrood:

Agreeing with Carol on this point and having presented another 
perfectly valid interpretation of canon. Also saying that Snape,
while possibly lying, but as a surface reading of canon would 
support, took credit upon himself for aiding in getting rid of 
Sirius.