Snape's involvement in the murder of Sirius

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 169177

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > The only problem is, there is no such plot in canon. The only plot
is to get Harry to the MoM using a fake Sirius (a phony vision) as a
decoy. 
> <snip>
> > 5) Snape certainly gave *some* information regarding Black,
probably that he had seen him in Animagus form at Hogwarts just before
his return, and he no doubt used that bit of information to claim a
share in Black's death, but it really made no contribution to Black's
death at all.
> 
> 
Jen responded:  

> Threads take on a life on their own once initial thoughts are
proposed, but I wanted to say that my initial post wasn't intended as
theorizing a plot by the DE's and Voldemort to kill Sirius. <snip>

Carol again:

Good. I'm glad we agree that there wasn't one!

Jen:
> I was proposing more of a personal thing between Snape and Sirius,
where Snape 'accidentally' let slip information that Voldemort used in
his plot to lure Harry to the MOM. <snip>

Carol:

As I said, he almost certainly would have indicated that he had seen
Black in Animagus form at Hogwarts and may also have indicated that
Black was hiding at Order HQ, which he could not reveal if he wanted
to. No harm was caused by revealing that information, especially since
he told Black that he'd been seen by Lucius Malfoy. All Black had to
do was stay at 12 GP and he couldn't be harmed. 

So the crucial information, used in the plot to lure Harry to the MoM,
would be Harry's attachment to Black, which canon says came from
Kreacher. Voldemort orignially thought that Harry knew about the
Prophecy and that just knowing about the Prophecy orb in the DoM would
be enough to lure him there. That's what the Occlumency lessons were
all about--stopping him from having that dream. It's only when Voldie
realized that something more was needed that Kreacher's information
became important and he, the Malfoys, and Voldemort worked out their
plot. It's Kreacher, after all, who injures Buckbeak and laughs when
he lies to Harry saying (prophetically) that "master" won't come back
from the Ministry, where he hasn't even gone and has, at that point,
no reason to go.
> 
Jen:
> So Dumbledore did obtain correct information from Kreacher, found it
to be true via Legilimency, but he was incorrect to think all the 
information moved from Kreacher to Narcissa rather than some of the 
information moving in the direction of Narcissa to Kreacher in my 
opinion.  If that's the case, then Narcissa got her information from
Voldemort. 

Carol:

You mean, *if your theory is correct*, he wasn't aware that some of
the information moved from Kreacher to Narcissa rather than the other
way around, right But surely, we're getting too technical here and JKR
wouldn't expect her readers to think in such detail about the
mechanics of the information transmission? (I think that Narcissa, not
being a DE herself so far as we know, would have received her
information about Voldemort's plans from Lucius, who may or may not
have been present when she interviewed Kreacher, but I don't think it
matters in terms of the overall plot.) Nor do I think she expects us
to note Kreacher's powers of observation (except that, as Fred tells
Hermione, he knows exactly what he's doing). *And*, unlike Snape,
whose loyalties we don't know, Kreacher's are solidly with the Blacks
(other than Sirius) and their Malfoy connections (including Draco, as
we see in HBP).

Jen:
 I'm particularly interested now in a piece of information that
Kreacher reported which can only be second-hand:  "Kreacher's
information made [Voldemort] realize the one person whom you would go
to any lengths to rescue was Sirius Black." (The Lost Prophecy 
Chapter, p. 831, Am. Ed.)

Carol:
So the information comes from Kreacher but the inference is
Voldemort's. No Snape in sight.
> 
Jen:
> In one post I mentioned Snape having access to more information than
Kreacher because of the fight with Sirius in GP when Kreacher was 
missing.  For example, Snape learned that Sirius was protective of
Harry and vice versa and that Sirius would be willing to leave GP if 
Snape (or perhaps anyone) messed with Harry.  That last bit wasn't 
integral to Voldemort's plot but it could have been important 
information to Snape.

Carol:
So you think that Snape would confess to, say, Lucius, "Black tried to
prevent me from giving Occlumency lessons to the Potter boy and
undermine his trust in me?" I don't think that Snape would be so
unwise as to mention those lessons in the hearing of any DE, much less
Voldemort himself. But don't you see that you're looking for things
that Snape could have done and things he could have said and reasons
he could have had when, in fact, we already have canon for Kreacher as
the source of the information? 

To speculate in my turn, I don't think that *Narcissa* (or Lucius)
would have confided anything to Kreacher, a mere house-elf (and a
filthy one at that). We have canon for the Malfoy attitude toward
house-elves. Surely, they would have asked *him* for information (or
he'd have volunteered it out of loyalty to the family) and then given
him orders (from Voldemort) that he'd be happy to carry out (injure
Buckbeak to keep Black away from the fireplace so Harry couldn't check
on him). What more do we need to know?

Jen:
> To borrow from my post yesterday, this theory is an attempt to
answer a certain area of canon:  Snape said he passed information that
helped dispose of Black in front of the woman whom Dumbledore 
credited with the passing of information that led to the same death.
Snape said this outside the awareness of the main POV character and
there was no explanation within HBP to reconcile the different views.
 To me that's fertile ground for theorizing a way to reconcile the two
pieces of information.

Carol:

Fertile ground for speculation, certainly, but much more simply
explained as "information" that Bella couldn't prove or disprove to
convince her of his loyalty to Voldemort. No need for long
explanations or theorizing. It's the way Snape works--undetectable
lies and half-truths from the master Occlumens. If Snape had really
provided valuable information regarding the relationship between Black
and his godson, a much more impressive claim than the vague (and
provably false) statement that his information helped lead to Black's
death, he would have said something along the lines of, "I provided
the Dark Lord with the information about Sirius Black that enabled him
to lure Harry Potter to the Ministry of Magic." Surely, that's more
important to LV (and Bellatrix) than having (supposedly) providing
information that helped lead to Black's death, which Snape is
(unrealistically) claiming?

Anyway, Jen, I'm glad you're not claiming that Snape was involved in a
plot to kill Sirius Black. But we're dealing with (DDM) *Snape* here,
the man who sent the Order to the MoM and stopped the ring Horcrux
from killing Dumbledore. He has to suppress and distort information,
to give reasons that will ring true to the DEs even if they're not his
real reasons (cf. his reasons for stopping the Crucio at the end of
the book). He has to pass as a loyal DE, and it seems to me that he's
making only vague claims that Bellatrix has no way of disproving but
does not find convincing. Surely, if he could make a specific claim of
having aided in the plot to trap Harry Potter, he would have done so,
even if the help was, as you speculate, inadvertent?

Carol, holding to her own simpler interpretation as consistent with
both canon and Snape's modus operandi but agreeing that Snape's
statements in "Spinner's End" are subject to multiple interpretations