Snape's involvement in the murder of Sirius

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 169192

> Jen:  I went back through and read sections with Kreacher and have
> to agree he makes sense in all the things he says, that he doesn't 
> seem confused.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> Yay! <bg>

Jen:  Hehe, figured you'd like that one. ;)

Betsy:
> But that's because I read Mrs. Black as less of a Tennessee 
> Williams' version of the mad matriarch, sweet and smothering as
> rotting perfume, and more of a cold, calculating, appearance before
> feelings type.  Less, "why don't you love me the most?!?" and 
> more, "why do you let your base heart guide you?", if that makes 
> sense.  And I feel like Mrs. Black would hate more than anything, 
> anyone finding out that Sirius's leaving actually *hurt* her.

> So the fact that Kreacher picked up on it, that he zeroed in on the 
> real reason for all of Mrs. Black's rage tells me that he's 
> actually very good at seeing the actual emotion behind someone's
> actions.

Jen:  Sirius *did* say his mother had no heart.:) Still, if Kreacher 
was showing insight with Mrs. Black and not repeating what he'd 
heard, he wasn't showing examples of the same ability with the others 
whom he hadn't known very long or had an interest in relating to 
because of the circumstances.

> Betsy Hp:
> Okay, this is really fascinating to me, because again, I read the 
> kitchen scene completely differently.  Snape doesn't seem at all 
> enraged in this scene to me. On the contrary, Snape seems very much 
> in control.
> 
> Sirius is the one who escalates, first with physical intimidation, 
> then drawing his wand, his voice rising with every statement. 
> Snape, on the other hand, speaks more and more softly, and while
> he certainly acts defensively (pulling his own wand) and while he
> very much taunts Sirius, Snape is not emotional.  The emotion, 
> despite Sirius's best efforts, is all Sirius's.

Jen:  Yes...I'm not sure.  The book says Snape was 'calculating.' I 
suppose it's because when Snape starts whispering is when he seems 
the most dangerous to me?  His snap at the end of POA with the 
yelling, shrieking and spit flying should have struck me as Snape at 
his angriest, but the going quiet deal impresses me as Snape at his 
scariest. (Yes, scary, I know that's hard for someone who loves the 
character to imagine but he can be very chilling to me. <g>)  
Actually, in rating all the scenes, I'd have to say his moment in the 
dungeon with Harry where he's both out of control *and* quiet would 
be my 10-out-of 10 scary Snape moment. Heh.  So yeah, the scene in 
the kitchen ranks below that one and above the spit flying in POA.  
Even he would probably agree that moment in POA was 'weak' because he 
was wearing his heart on his sleeve.  He's not effective when he's 
out of control and very effective when he has mastery of himself.

(Oh, and I snipped out the part about loyalty because I know we won't 
agree about it right *now*.  I mean, if JKR hits me over the head 
with an anvil in DH then I won't be one to hang onto treasured 
theories.)

Betsy:
> [An aside: I love, love, love this scene. So very, very, 
> much. ::thinks about Snape for a while::]

Jen:  He's a scary man Betsy, *scary*.  

> Betsy Hp:
> Gosh, to me that actually goes completely *against* Snape's 
> characterization.  For some reason I just don't see Snape acting
> like such a lone wolf. <snip> The ones who'd most likely strike out
> on their own; the ones who actually *did* strike out on their own
> were the Marauders.  But Snape?  No, I'm pretty sure Snape was, and
> is, Dumbledore's man through and through.

Jen:  This one here is the parting of the ways I'm afraid, not 
because I don't agree the Marauders have acted on their own plenty 
but because I see Snape doing that as well:  Going after Quirrell by 
himself?  Running to the Shrieking Shack without alerting 
Dumbledore?  Informing the Slytherins about Lupin without talking to 
Dumbledore first?  Not sending a Patronus to Dumbledore the minute 
Harry appeared to have had the vision of Sirius?  Possibly the UV?  

I know Snape needing to send a patronus to Dumbledore is not canon 
but I've never understood this action on Snape's part.  They've 
worked the whole *year* to make sure Harry isn't lured to the MOM and 
what does Snape do when he discovers Harry has had a vision that 
might lure him to the MOM?  He ensures for himself that Sirius is 
alive and safe at Grimmauld and then when Harry never returns from 
the trip into the forest, "Professor Snape grew worried that [Harry] 
still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's." Well, 
DUH, because Snape never bothered to tell *Harry* that Sirius was 
okay. That one defies logic for me, first that Snape didn't do 
anything and second that Dumbledore didn't find that decision lacking 
judgement.

Magpie:
> That part actually makes sense to me. Kreacher doesn't have to be
> telling Voldemort that Harry really loves Harry etc. He could just
> show up and have Narcissa or whomever ask him questions that he can
> answer, questions that lead Voldemort to the conclusion of how Harry
> feels about Sirius. Iow, it's not Kreacher's plan to lure Harry 
> using Siirus, it's the plan Voldemort comes up with after hearing 
> Kreacher talk about life at Grimmauld Place outside of confidential
> Order business. There are a lot of things Kreacher could say that
> would give a hint to what the relationships there were like without
> Kreacher having to draw the conclusion himself.

Jen:  Well, I would spin it a little different and say that Voldemort 
was checking out the information he received from Snape for accuracy 
and to see if Kreacher had learned any additional information that 
could be useful if his memory was prodded.  Whether Snape was lying 
when he said he passed information on Sirius remains to be seen, but 
I find it at least somewhat interesting the point was made outside 
Harry's awareness.  The way JKR has worked it so far, conversations 
pertinent to Harry outside his earshot make their back to him one way 
or another and this one will need an explanation should it get back 
to Harry.

Jen before:
> So Dumbledore did obtain correct information from Kreacher, found it
> to be true via Legilimency, but he was incorrect to think all the
> information moved from Kreacher to Narcissa rather than some of the
> information moving in the direction of Narcissa to Kreacher in my
> opinion. If that's the case, then Narcissa got her information from
> Voldemort.

Carol:
> You mean, *if your theory is correct*, he wasn't aware that some of
> the information moved from Kreacher to Narcissa rather than the 
> other way around, right .

Jen:  I believe it's time to agree to disagree on this thread, 
Carol.  I made a disclaimer in my last post that I wasn't stating 
this theory as fact, that it included speculation (and the above was 
in the original theory) and I included "If that's the case" and "in 
my opinion" in the paragraph above mostly in anticipation of what you 
might say.  I'm not jumping through any more hoops.

Jen