The Model of the Modern Major General? / Ethics

[leslie41]

No: HPFGUIDX 169206

> Leslie41:

> Snape believes he's going into a confrontation with Lupin
> and the man he thinks he's protecting, the outlaw and
> dangerous Azkaban escapee, Sirius Black.


> Goddlefrood:

> Does he now? Told us this did he? I think not. Severus had
> the very clear intention, IMO, of being the one to *capture*
> Sirius, not necessarily by violent means.

> Leslie41:

> Yes, he says "how I hoped I'd be the one to catch you," so I
> intuit from that that he believes there's a possibility he
> was following Lupin to Black's hideout.

Goddlefrood:

Perhaps the difference between "capture" and "catch" escapes
you, this looks rather like disagreement for its own sake
rather than for any better reason. I also apprehend that my
post to which the above quote responds was not read very
carefully. Let's take a closer look:

> Such obstacles would include Remus and, he may have hoped,
> Sirius too. (from #169102)

Is there a difference between this and what is quoted above
from the post to which this now replies? This may be answered
by neutral third parties.

Agreement with the basic matter stated leads to criticism for
little reason and from an inethical point of view. More's the
pity because I argue for a living, I rarely try to pass that
on to others, but it also seems that no regard has been taken
of post #169133, which expanded substantially on the counter
argument.

Leslie41:

I will quote back to you now my assertion and your response:

> Leslie41:

> Snape believes he's going into a confrontation with Lupin and the 
> man he thinks he's protecting, the outlaw and dangerous Azkaban 
> escapee, Sirius Black.

> Goddlefrood:

> Does he now? Told us this did he? I think not. Severus had the very 
> clear intention, IMO, of being the one to *capture* Sirius, not 
> necessarily by violent means. The Snape I divine from the point 
> reached in canon in PoA is that he considered himself, perhaps 
> quite reasonably, powerful enough to be able to deal with whatever 
> obstacle he might find in his way at the Shack. Such obstacles 
> would include Remus and, he may have hoped, Sirius too. Also he 
> would have had the singular thought, IMO, that the time had come 
> for his revenge for what had occurred proximate to the Shack around 
> 20 years earlier and have been blinded to any potential dangers to 
> *himself* by that thought.

Leslie41:
As you can see from your response, you are contradicting yourself.  
You say "I think not" and then "Such obstacles would include Remus 
and, he may have hoped, Sirius too."  Perhaps you are trying to have 
it both ways.  I'm not sure here whether you agree or not, but the 
most forceful part of your statement comes at the beginning, so I 
assumed you were trying to disagree with my statement that Snape 
thought Sirius would be at the shack.  You can see how I might have 
believed that, I'm sure. 

Goddlefrod:
Agreement with the basic matter stated leads to criticism for little 
reason and from an inethical point of view. More's the pity because I 
argue for a living, I rarely try to pass that on to others, but it 
also seems that no regard has been taken of post #169133, which 
expanded substantially on the counter argument.

Leslie41:

I hardly think it's "inethical" for me to respond to your outright "I 
think not" in response to my point.  I read your post.  I don't think 
it "expands substantially" on the issue of whether or not Snape 
believes Sirius was in the shack. Counter argument to what?  Clarify. 
You may argue for a living but I teach argument for a living.  I get 
paid to read arguments all day, every day.  Yours, may I say, is not 
entirely clear.  And that's not an ad hominem attack, by the way.  
Nor is it "inethical" (the actual word is unethical).  

> Leslie41:

> What do you think Black and Lupin are thinking of when they're 
> aiming their wands at Peter Pettigrew? Reforming him?

Goddlefrood:

I doubt they have any thought for the price of fish. Again the follow 
up post was likely not read. I criticise equally where merited. I 
have pointed out many flaws in diverse characters
in canon. No one is by any means depicted as perfect.

Leslie41:

Agreed. 

> Leslie41:

> Black bears no regret for his past actions. "Served him right" he 
> says. So Snape is not the only one holding agrudge. And Sirius, 
> canonically, has far less reason.

Goddlefrood:

Sirius and Severus were never bosom chums, I'll grant you, but I have 
mentioned this before. Very recently I stated that Sirius could be 
seen as being unreasonable in some of the continued grudges he holds, 
including the one to Snape by implication.

The matter that will possibly enlighten us all about why Sirius bore 
a grudge is partly his continued mistrust of Severus, which is easily 
divined from GoF:

'Sirius and Snape were eying each other with the utmost loathing.' - 
p.618, Bloomsbury Hardback Edition.

A matter reinforced by JKR in an interview:

" Q: What made Sirius decide to send Snape to the Willow?

JK Rowling replies -> Because Sirius loathed Snape (and the feeling 
was entirely mutual). You'll find out more about this in due course."

From:

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm

Suggestive of a grudge borne by Sirius since before the prank during 
their schooldays together. It is not unreasonable to suggest, as I 
now do, that Sirius justifiably loathed Severus,
not perhaps to the extent of justifying wanting him dead, which the 
prank also suggests, but a deep seated hatred nevertheless. Deathly 
Hallows should resolve this puzzle and might well give
a reason, albeit perhaps thought unreasonable by some, that Sirius 
hated Severus.

Severus's grudge against Sirius is clear as day and I trust needs no 
further elucidation.

Leslie41:

Unfortunately, you have no actual *evidence* for this claim (though 
you certainly present a lot of hopeful, unfounded speculation), so it 
is "unreasonable" to suggest that.  You are basing your claim on a 
hint that something more serious *might* be there.  Lots of 
things "might" be the case.  You have no hard evidence that Snape 
ever did anything to Sirius other than what Sirius' himself cites, 
that Snape was "sneaking around
.trying to find out what we were up 
to
.hoping to get us expelled." (PoA 356).  These are extremely vague 
assertions, and also extremely subjective in that they impute an 
intent in Snape where none might have existed, at least initially.  
What is more likely is that the beautiful, rich Sirius Black tried 
and did make life very difficult for the ugly and poor Snape.  But I 
don't state that as fact either.  I just assume that because those 
are usually the reasons why a rich, good-looking teenager attacks a 
poor, ugly one. What is fact is that James and Sirius attacked Snape 
when he was minding his own business, and then Sirius played a prank 
that could have killed him.  

That is actual *evidence.*  So yes, I think you're grasping at straws 
here because you'd like to believe, with no proof, that Sirius "had a 
good reason" for doing those things to Snape.  There's no evidence in 
canon that he did.  

> Leslie41:

> Aren't Black's and Lupin's actions clouded by their hatred? Snape 
> stops *himself* from killing Black.

Goddlefrood:

Well, of course they are, they know at that point that Peter betrayed 
the Potters to Lord Voldemort. Snape is confronting an unarmed man, 
whatever he may think of that man. He should be congratulated 
perhaps. As quoted from canon by the poster this replies to "How I 
hoped I'd be the one to catch you". Sirius did not lunge towards 
Severus but "started" towards him, he held himself back due to 
Snape's pointing a wand between his eyes. Had Sirus lunged towards 
him then Snape would have been justified in using further force, 
possibly even deadly force.

Catch, not kill. Severus clearly states he wants to hand Sirius over 
to the Dementors. That his judgment was clouded by his hatred is also 
a matter on which there appears to be concurrence, it's all becoming 
rather dull and repetitive, in other words.

Leslie41:

You forgot the part about "starting" towards Snape "with a roar of 
rage."  Sirius is not moseying.  And he's not heading towards LUPIN 
to help him.  He's headed towards Snape with the intent to take his 
wand and likely hurt him.  Snape has every reason to believe him in 
that Sirius has attempted to hurt him in the past, and succeeded at 
hurting him.  

"You should have left him to me
" Sirius says to Harry after the trio 
stun Snape.    

> Leslie41:

> From internal, canonical evidence. Namely, from what the character 
> says, and more importantly (especially in Snape's case) what the 
> character does.

Goddlefrood:

True, but it does not mean it is *accurate*, it is still an 
*impression* whether or not a person thinks Snape is good or bad. 
That hardly seems a matter of controversy, but then many insist on 
having it their own way. It's plain that few, if any of my posts on 
Severus over the years had been read. Another matter that often leads 
to a better argument is research.  Would that be biased and 
hypocritical to suggest?

Leslie41:

It is not "biased and hypocritical" to suggest that.  However it 
seems more than a little narcissistic.  But I will ask your pardon, 
as I most surely haven't memorized all of your posts on Snape "over 
the years" and I haven't thoroughly researched your particular point 
of view. 

> Leslie41:

> Well, it doesn't surprise me that you don't want to give Snape 
> credit for his actions. It doesn't surprise me at all.

Goddlefrood:

It doesn't surprise you? As I said in #169133 a personal attack 
rarely advances an argument, and your argument is very far from being 
advanced, so it does not surprise me in return that you resort to 
such base and unnecessary tactics.

Leslie41:

Another "personal attack" coming.  You seem awfully touchy for a 
lawyer. In my opinion, of course.

Goddlefrood:

Were you, Leslie41, in the same position as Snape then you would not 
have hesitated to kill Sirius, is that what was being said?

Lucky you to have never been in any even remotely similar positions.

Leslie41:

Actually, I have.  On what basis do you make the assumption that I 
haven't?  And, I would ask, do you make such baseless assumptions in 
court?  Perhaps you are the one who needs to do more research.

A few years ago (when I was single and living alone), I woke up with 
a strange man in my apartment.  The same man (an 
exhibitionist/peeping tom) who had been peering through my windows 
for months and masturbating naked against them as well.  

I did not have a gun.  I chased him out.  And lucky for *me* he did 
not have a gun or attempt to hurt me.  But if I had had a gun, would 
I have been justified in shooting him as he came towards me?  

You decide.  I know for a fact that I might have been questioned, but 
I most certainly would not have been sent to jail.  Now, aside from 
the exhibitionism and the sexual depravity, that man had never 
actually tried to *hurt* me.  Sirius had a history of trying to hurt 
Snape.    

> Leslie41:

> Oh, if I shoot a known psychopath lunging towards me with an intent 
> to do bodily harm that's going to get *ME* the death penalty?

Goddlefrood:

No, but that is not what I said, if you care to look. If you have no 
*reasonable* ground for believing that your life is in danger then 
you would be in severe trouble and as you clearly live in a country 
with the death penalty, I'd suggest you got your facts very straight 
if you ever found yourself in such a situation. On the other hand if 
your belief *is* reasonable from an objective standpoint then you 
would probably be fine and the over embellishment contained in your 
example would be such a situation. 

Leslie41:

See my own experience cited above and decide for yourself whether or 
not I would have been convicted for murder or manslaughter.  

Goddlefrod:

Sarcasm hardly becomes. While it may sometimes be said that it is the 
highest form of intelligence, it is also said to be the lowest form 
of wit.

Leslie41:

I find sarcasm very becoming.  And amusing.  But since it you are so 
very, very bothered by it, in order to avoid any further accusations 
that I am being "uncouth," I will hold off on it from now on.