Marietta/Perfection of Morality/Other Things

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 169292

Eggplant
>
> All those crying over Marietta's acne should remember that if this was
> real life and a secret underground organization had discover one of
> their own members had betrayed them to the fascist enemy that traitor
>   would be very lucked indeed to survive with her life. This is no
> longer kid stuff, this is life and death, and there is no reason to
> except our literary heroes would fit in comfortably with Saturday
> morning cartoon morality.

LL:

Well, I don't know about this being real life, although its fictional
status does not, of course, lesson the importance of the moral messages
being sent.  I understand what you are saying.  Of course, that brings
up the question of just how much preaching JKR intends to do.  She
claims to have a horror of it, but I fear in the end she may be
preaching to the point of actually screaming like a red-faced
evangelist -- and one preaching extraordinarily bad morality at that.
When it comes to Marietta, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't revisit
the subject under the guise of House unity.

Hickengruendler said:

Marietta, first and foremost, is still a student. She didn't subscribe
to any kind of war group, but to a student organisation, which was
still allowed, once she signed the parchment. We also learn, that she
is worried about he rmother

Now LL:

True.  But JKR doesn't seem to care very much for such niceties.  Harry
didn't sign up to be abused by his potions professor, either.  <Shrug>
Still, she has pushed the end of almost all threads to the last book.
We shall see what gets revisited.

Hickengruendler:

Umbridge got away easier than Marietta (though I hope this will change
in book 7).

LL:

True, and JKR's off-hand explanation of that was, I think, one of her
worse moments.  Once again, we shall see.  But I've always thought that
Dumbledore's failure to stop and/or clearly punish Umbridge was
testament to his contemptible toleration of Harry being abused,
seconded only by his seeming approval of Snape's abuse of Harry.

Carol:

Nor would JKR's having Snape's loyalties and lifesaving outweigh his
sarcasm and hatred of James (I also dislike James, sorry!) be an
indication that she approves of child abuse.

LL:

Frankly, I don't see how it could indicate anything else.  We have an
abusing Snape and a situation where said abuse is "outweighed" by some
higher moral principle.  Within such context, abuse would, I think, be
clearly approved of, or at the very least tolerated.  Now, if you
think, as I do, that child abuse can never be approved, condoned, or in
any way tolerated no matter the context, then what has been done is
utterly reprehensible and indicative of a contemptible willingness to
wave away moral imperatives.

Or that is the message being sent.  As I've said before, I don't think
that's the message JKR intends.  But one of her great weaknesses, I do
think, is that she has a habit of lapsing into very bad writing in which
she sends contemptible moral messages.

Carol:

I, for one, will be very disappointed if Harry lets
something so petty as an undeserved zero in Potions stand in the way
of his forgiveness of Snape.

LL:

And I would be sad, but not disappointed, if JKR used the excuse
of "pettiness" or the "minor" level of Snape's abuse of Harry and
Neville to be cover for dismissing said abuse as morally unimportant.
Unfortunately, as shown in her sweeping of Dumbledore's contemptible
actions and inactions under the rug, JKR is, I think, very apt to do
just that.

Carol:

Carol, hoping that Lupinlore has stocked up on whatever fuel a wood
chipper requires as I expect he's going to need it

LL:

Mostly they use gas.  You are probably right that JKR will fail in a
reprehensible manner by approving backhandedly of Snape's abusive
behavior and DD's contemptible failures.  <Shrug>  Gas is expensive,
but I have enough.  Besides, it would be even more expensive to use
books approving of child abuse in a more proper way -- as a bathroom
tool.

Carol:

Harry has never showed the least bit of gratitude to Snape for saving
his life in SS/PS, for example.

LL:

Yet another odd ommission by our "epitome of goodness," don't you
think?  After all, DD has never suggested that Harry thank Snape or be
grateful to him.  In fact, DD has tacitly assured Harry that he needn't
feel grateful, since Snapey-poo was only paying back a debt to mean-ole
James.

Phoenixgod said:

I think that won't be satisfying for a lot of readers. While
forgiveness is all well and good in the real world, forgiving someone
who doesn't acknowledge it or respond to it by someone who has
justifiable reasons to hate the other person won't be satisfying for
at least me.

LL:

Yes, I would agree with that.  Unfortunately, I don't think we will be
satisfied.  I think that is incredibly bad writing, but JKR has shown
herself capable of such (see below).

Phoenixgod:

I don't think I ever found Dumbledore more unlikable than when he just
shoves Harry's very real angry and frustration under the rug.

LL:

True.  As I said above, JKR has a habit from time to time of lapsing
into bad writing and sending all sorts of messages I doubt she
intends.  I think this was one of them.

Leslie:

You are entitled to believe what you like about Snape. However, if
you want to avoid the charge of hypocrisy, and present an argument
that is coherent and logical, you will demand the same treatment for
those you like that you do for Snape. As you call
yourself "Lupinlore" my guess is you will not, however.


LL:

Nope, I won't.  That is, I think, the reward for nice people, they get
a pass whereas abusive idiots like Snape don't. Perfectly appropriate
and perfectly fair, I would say, and in fact do say.  Nor will I give
JKR a pass, not that she will care in the least or even notice, if she
ends up approving of Snape's child abuse and allowing it to go
unmentioned and unpunished. Is that hypocritical?  It depends, I guess,
on your definition, and as Goodlefriend points out all such things are
irreducibly subjective.  So, maybe I am a hypocrite, :-).  On the other
hand, I'm very cute and an above average dancer, and most people find
that much more important than any amount of intellectual honesty, no
matter how you define it.


Lupinlore, going out to test the wood chipper