Snape, Snape, Snape--favorite moments (Re: Snape's involvement in the...)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 169293

> Carol again:
> But I'm still left without an explanation for that one
> niggling detail, which I'll confess here. While his actions in the
> Shrieking Shack indicate (unless he's an extraordinarily gifted 
actor)
> that he thought that the spy/traitor/murderer was Sirius Black. He
> certainly believed that Black had murdered Pettigrew, and I think he
> believed along with everyone else that Black was out to murder 
Harry.
> *But* he seems to recognize the nicknames on the Marauder's Map, 
which
> is where the doubt comes in. If he knew that Wormtail was Peter
> Pettigrew, and the Death Eaters knew that the spy was Wormtail, how
> could Snape not know that the spy was Peter Pettigrew? 

zgirnius:
I am convinced he knew the nicknames. At the least, he knew James was 
Prongs, Sirius seems to have called him that habitually, in public 
situations, based on the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene. I suppose it 
is possible Snape did not know who of Padfoot and and Wormtail was 
who (Moony is too obvious not to get, with what Snape knows of 
Lupin), but even that seems unlikely.

What I don't get is where the idea that the Death Eaters knew that an 
individual with the alias Wormtail was the spy is coming from. In 
PoA, Sirius says only:

> PoA:
> "You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years," said 
Black. "You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard 
things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead, or you'd have 
to answer to them.... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things 
in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-
crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your information... 
and Voldemort met his downfall there. And not all Voldemort's 
supporters ended up in Azkaban, did they? There are still plenty out 
here, biding their time, pretending they've seen the error of their 
ways.

zgirnius:
No name or nickname is mentioned for the 'double-crosser'. When 
Sirius says 'they think you are dead', he could just mean they think 
Peter is dead, which is the common opinion throughout the WW. When 
the DEs speak of the 'double-crosser', Sirius in his own mind 
inserts 'Peter/Wormtail' since *he* knows it is Peter that led 
Voldemort to the Potters, but he may well know more than some or all 
of the Death Eaters he is listening to. Note "Voldemort went to the 
Potters' on your information... and Voldemort met his downfall there" 
is a simple statement of fact which Sirius knows independently, 
Sirius is not saying anyone told him so or yelled it in his sleep.

Since Peter has gone into and stayed in hiding apparently out of fear 
of Voldemort supporters, someone besides Voldemort knew he was the 
spy, but I would think it was a closely held secret, and in 
particular one it would have been illogical for Voldemort to share 
with Snape. This is because it seems Voldemort hoped to plant Snape 
on Dumbledore as a spy. From a paranoid espionage story type of 
considerations, one of the beauties of having two spies within the 
same organization (in this case, the Order) is that you can then 
crosscheck their reports and see whether they are lying or holding 
back information. But only if they are not aware of one another.

The first 'bad guy' to use the name is Voldemort in GoF. And in 
the "Death Eaters" chapter, he first uses it after he tortures Avery. 
If any present knew Pettigrew at all, one presumes they would be 
surprised much earlier, since he is not described as wearing a mask. 
His 'murder' by Black was widely publicized (Malfoy, for one, was in 
school with Peter). We do not see that surprise, I presume because 
they are more surprised and worried to see Voldemort is also alive, 
and they are too busy groveling. 

> Leslie41:
> This is *the* chapter for me.  He totally owns Bellatrix, and 
> Narcissa as well.  The way he puts Wormtail in his place, 
> effortlessly turning him into his servant...the way he turns the 
two 
> sisters on each *other*.  And it all seems completely effortless.  
> They are completely outclassed.   
  
zgirnius:
Huh. This is *the* chapter for me, too. (Which, alas, means it is 
falling out of my poor beat-up copy of HBP...) I recognized in GoF 
and OotP that the issue of Snape's loyalties was being set up as an 
official mystery in the series, and thought it sort of unfortunate 
that I would never get to see the stuff that would help me decide for 
myself what I think about it (namely, Snape the spy in action, since 
how would Harry ever be around for that?!). I was, to say the least, 
pleasantly surprised when the door Narcissa knocked on turned out to 
be Snape's! And totally convinced that he's a 'good guy' by the 
chapter.

But I see the chapter rather differently from you. He seems 
effortless and at ease, but somehow I did not get the impression that 
it *was* easy, or he was really in control. In particular, it seems 
to me that Narcissa, despite her show of weakness and those teary 
baby-blues, walked away with exactly what she wanted. I am not 
convinced it was exactly what Snape planned. The ominous imagery at 
the end of the chapter gave me the unpleasant feeling that a mistake 
had been made.

I suppose it could be Dumbledore's, and Snape was just carrying out a 
plan, but, especially in light of Snape's reactions at the very end 
after he has killed Dumbledore, I don't think so.