Snape, Snape, Snape--favorite moments (Re: Snape's involvement in the...)

[cdayr]

No: HPFGUIDX 169294

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
<snip> 
> > 
> Carol again:
> 
> Well, I had no doubts about his loyalties until PoA, when one doubt
> crept in that I still haven't figured out a convincing explanation
> for. Snape's actions in GoF swept that doubt away in the sense that it
> showed me that I was right in the first place: his loyalties are with
> Dumbledore. But I'm still left without an explanation for that one
> niggling detail, which I'll confess here. While his actions in the
> Shrieking Shack indicate (unless he's an extraordinarily gifted actor)
> that he thought that the spy/traitor/murderer was Sirius Black. He
> certainly believed that Black had murdered Pettigrew, and I think he
> believed along with everyone else that Black was out to murder Harry.
> *But* he seems to recognize the nicknames on the Marauder's Map, which
> is where the doubt comes in. If he knew that Wormtail was Peter
> Pettigrew, and the Death Eaters knew that the spy was Wormtail, how
> could Snape not know that the spy was Peter Pettigrew? The only
> explanation I can think of is that the DEs were generally hooded, so
> that they didn't know who Wormtail was, and Snape didn't know MWPP's
> nicknames, but figured out who they were from the insults and the
> nickname Moony, which would be appropriate for a werewolf. Also, I
> think it was only Bellatrix and her cohorts who were screaming about
> Wormtail being a traiotr, not all the DEs in Azkaban, but why was no
> one in the graveyard surprised to find a DE named Wormtail? Did they
> not know that he was Peter Pettigrew, and didn't they think that Peter
> was dead?
> 
> So, see, I'm not 100 percent sure that Snape is DDM. That and the UV
> and the killing of Dumbledore raise nagging doubts in my mind. 

Celia:
Ack! This is why I love this list. After all of the amazing posts I have adored from you 
Carol, defining, defending, and solidifying DDM!Snape, it is so fabulous that you still have 
doubts and are willing to speak them. 

Although I am feeling a bit off kilter about it...<g, swaying slightly>

Back to the canon though, I have to agree that the identity of Wormtail, throughout the 
books, has been confusing to me. Not his actual identity, of course, but the issue of who 
knows Peter is Wormtail and uses that name as his identity. I find it odd, in general, that 
his Marauder name is the name used by the DEs. I tend towards the 
explanation that his DE identity was "Wormtail" and that few, if any, knew that Peter and 
Wormtail were the same person. Even if Snape did know that Wormtail was Peter, and 
a DE, couldn't it still be possible that he also thought he was killed by Sirius and that Sirius 
was a traitor? (I'm truly asking this, as my brain is now muddled thinking about it...)

Another thought...perhaps Snape knew the Marauders' nicknames were MWPP, but not who 
was who, and figured that "Wormtail" was Sirius once he learned who the "traitor" was? It 
was only after PoA that he realized his confusion and started calling the correct Marauder 
Wormtail. Just trying that one out too.

Carol:
But the
> rest of the evidence (the first two books, most of PoA, all of the
> fourth and fifth books) counteracts those troublesome moments. I don't
> think for a moment that he's ESE, but I can see just enough grey to
> understand why others don't interpret him as I do and to have just the
> smallest tinge of fear that they may be right. But in the long run, I
> trust Dumbledore's judgment, and I can explain the UV and the killing
> of Dumbledore in ways that I find perfectly consistent with DDM Snape.
> But I'd really like to hear from other DDM!Snapers regarding his
> apparent recognition of the names on the map. (Didn't know that was
> coming, didja?)

Celia:
Eeek, no. See above.
But isn't this the brilliance of his characterization? That even those of us with a very solid 
belief that he *is* DDM or ESE or OFH have to admit there is always some doubt. Canon 
does not give any of us a lock on our side, IMHO. Even if it is little and niggling, doubt is 
there. I feel very confident in DDM, based on massive canon discussed ad nauseum here. I 
will defend DDM!Snape until The End. But *my* weakness lies in "He intends me to do it in 
the end, I think," at Spinner's End. I can work hard to make this comment fit with DDM!
Snape about to take the UV, but I get the niggling doubts every time. 

That would be another interesting thread- what moments make you doubt your solid 
beliefs the most...

<snip>

Carol:
the Internet had the opposite
> effect for me. I felt like a member of a support group for Snape fans
> when I discovered that I wasn't alone in believing in him. (Sort of
> like the Richard III Society, as some of you know!) 

Celia smiles and waves. *I know.*

<snip>
 
> Carol earlier:
> > > And also Sectumsempta and its countercurse are almost like the two
> sides of the Snape coin in one symbol.
> > 
> > Jen: Nice imagery.  

Celia:
I agree. So much of what we know about him supports the idea that he is full of dualities- 
expert at dark spells/expert at DADA, Order member/DE, etc. The curse, 
countercurse example and coin metaphor are lovely.

Celia
<painfully snipping the end of this, because I primarily wanted to respond to the Wormtail 
issue, but really agreeing with Carol about Snape having an ever present dark side is 
constantly in conflict, ebbing and flowing within him>