What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 169334

--From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169209

-- One last point from PS/SS --
> zgirnius:
> <snip>  Perhaps any of 100 other people 
> might have saved Harry instead that day. This does not alter the 
> fact that only two people did, and one of them was Severus Snape.

Mike:
From my perspective, Harry was saved from possible serious injury, 
not from possible death. And yes, Snape with Hermione's inadvertant 
help did the saving. 


-- Now on to PoA --
> zgirnius:
> <snip>
> 
> 1) Black has an accomplice inside the castle. Considering a 
> person's known associates as more likely to be such an accomplice 
> compared to complete strangers (such as the actual culprit, the cat 
> of Hermione Granger) is reasonable. 

Mike:
Excepting one thing - Snape seems to have already decided that Lupin 
was Black's accomplice by the time of the Fat Lady attack. Snape's 
words to Dumbledore in the great hall, which included: "I did express 
my concerns you when appointed--" indicate, to me, that Snape had 
pleaded his case against Lupin *on the basis of his relationship with 
Black* before Lupin even had the job. 

Therefore, Snape needed no evidence to convince him of Lupin's 
culpability, since he had none prior to the start of term and he has 
already warned Dumbledore. Subsequent knowledge of an inside 
accomplice only confirms in Snape's mind his prejudicial suspicions, 
which are wrong in the first place.


> zgirnius:
> 2) There is also the matter of the parchment that Snape finds on 
> Harry after Harry's illicit trip to Hogsmeade. He suspects that it 
> contains instructions about how to get into Hogsmeade without 
> passing the Dementors, a reasonable guess given Harry has just done 
> so. A guess, further, not in any way connected to any supposed 
> irrational prejudice against the Marauders, since he makes the 
> connection before the Marauders' nicknames enter the picture. He 
> learns that the parchment in question was made by the Marauders, 
> and Lupin lies to him about it. Where do you suppose Snape thinks  
> Harry got the thing? *Directly from the manufacturers*, Snape 
> supposes. Only one of whom has easy access to Harry - Lupin.

Mike:
I'd like to come at this from a little different angle, regarding the 
Marauder's Map. These *secret passages* are not completely secret, 
Filch knows about four of them. Dumbledore set one up. I don't 
believe that the Marauders were the first ones to discover the secret 
passages of a castle thats been around for nigh a thousand years. In 
fact, Snape already knows that Sirius knew one of them. Is it too 
much to expect that Snape (who supposedly had such a keen insight 
into the Marauders) would suspect Black knew a few more of the secret 
passages? But lastly, what greater knowledge of the castle would 
anyone (Snape, DD, etc.) think Lupin might have over Black's 
knowledge? IOW, why would Black need inside help to get into the 
castle? The answer is, he doesn't, Dumbledore got that part right.

Dumbledore admits he doesn't know all of his castles secrets. Doesn't 
that mean he could fathom a secret passage that Black knew but he was 
unaware of? And doesn't he as much as say so when he tells Severus "I 
do not believe a single person inside this castle would have helped 
Black enter it."? Of course, Dumbledore was right and Snape was wrong 
on this count, but Snape is not deterred in his belief at this point.
It looks like Dumbledore's!Man!Snape doesn't believe Dumbledore.

In the Map questioning scene, I think both Lupin and Snape knew 
exactly what the other was insinuating, but not saying it out loud in 
front of Harry. Does anyone really think Snape thought the parchment 
contained "Dark Magic" as he remarks to Lupin? I don't. So they are 
both lying out loud, but they understand what each other really 
thinks about each other.


> zgirnius:
> 3) That it *is* a way to get into Hogsmeade is a shrewd guess that 
> Snape confirms before he comes after Lupin in the climax of PoA - 
> he sees it at work when he sees Lupin go into the tunnel.
> 
> Enough to make following Lupin seem worth the trouble when he does, 
> to me.

Mike:
But what does it matter that the Map showed secret passages? Black 
doesn't have it. And if Snape recognized who the "manufacturers" 
were, then he knows Black was one of them. So Black didn't need the 
Map.

And how does the Map affect Snape's decision to follow Lupin? He 
already knows where that tunnel leads, he's been down that road 
before. <eg>
_______________________________________________________

The problem I have with all this *evidence* is that it doesn't seem 
to be enlightening Severus Snape to anything. Oh sure, the Marauder's 
Map is something new and Snape cleverly deduces its true purpose. But 
he catches Harry with it. And since he recognizes Black as one of 
the "manufacturers", shouldn't that point to Black *not* needing any 
*inside help* to get into the castle?

As to Lupin, why would it surprise Snape that Harry could be taken 
into Lupin's confidence? Snape thinks Harry is too much like his 
father, and his father was friends with Lupin. It doesn't seem like 
much of a stretch to envision this pairing could happen. But why 
would Snape think there were two traitors among the Marauders? Or one 
traitor and one enabler, I guess. We are going to need to be shown 
some strange goings on from the past to make me understand why Snape 
should believe both Black and Lupin turned on their friend James 
Potter. 

And if Snape believes, as we do, the Lupin is weak - the weak thing 
to do does not include actively helping a *known* murderer kill the 
son of your deceased, one-time good friend. The weak thing would be 
to hide behind Dumbledore and do nothing, positive or negative, which 
is what Lupin does. How can this be so hard for Snape to see, 
especially with his past history and experience with the Marauders?

Snape seems to be doing what we on this list are prone to do; Fitting 
the evidence to match the theory.

***************************************************
Before I go on, I want to air my opinion that PoA has *the* longest 
running section of poorly written work, from a plot-making-sense 
perspective. Starting where Dog!Sirius drags Ron into the Willow 
and clear through to the final Hospital scene where Snape loses it. 
This includes JKR's unfortunate choice to introduce time-travel, and 
my biggest complaint, Lupin's transformation when the cloud shifts. 
The unreasonableness of actions by many of her characters in this 
section of the book, has led to many of us drawing completely 
different conclusions for their actions. But, of course, that doesn't 
stop us from debating. <BG>
***************************************************

---[re: Womping Willow-Shrieking Shack operability]---

In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169093
> Leslie:
> Because it took the Marauders to let him out, that's why. He
> essentially was "locked in" at the Shrieking Shack, unless someone
> came to get him out. Obviously that's the case, because what
> protection would the shack have been had they left the door open?

> zgirnius:
> Canon is that he was able to get out because Peter the convenient 
> little rat stopped the tree. In his transformed state, he loses his 
> human consciousness and does not know how to deactivate the tree 
> himself.
>
> If he could always get out by himself, why didn't he? Not to 
> mention it makes Dumbledore an idiot - this is the protection he 
> put in place when he permitted Lupin to attend the school.


Mike:
It's good to debate these points when different perspectives can 
cause enlightenment. I think this happened in this case. I think both 
of you have spotted a plot hole, not that they are rare in this 
section of the book. <g> Either that or, as zgirnius notes, 
Dumbledore was an idiot.

When Dog!Sirius is dragging Ron into the Willow the limbs have *not* 
been deactivated. One of them hits Harry while he has a handful of 
Dog fur. So it is possible to traverse to or from the Willow's 
entrance while its still in the "Whomping" mode. This is what 
prompted my previous remark: "Lupin would just move faster on all 
fours as a werewolf." As in, a werewolf would have a reasonable shot 
at eluding the thrashing branches. The dog dragging a boy did.

I never even considered the Willow being the "locked door". That that 
was Dumbledore's protection to keep werewolf Lupin from escaping. I 
had always assumed the purpose of the Whomping Willow was to keep 
anybody else from encountering werewolf!Lupin.

My assumption was that Madam Pomphrey had to escort Lupin to the 
Willow because someone had to put some kind of spell on the entrance, 
like the DE barrier on the tower. (I pick the entrance because I 
can't see poor Madam P ambling through that dirty tunnel to put the 
barrier up at the Shack entrance <g>) Something that the other 
Marauders removed. It didn't have to be a complicated spell, Lupin 
the werewolf wasn't going to be casting any counter charms.

But if my barrier assumption (which isn't canon) is wrong and your 
assumption of the Willow as barrier (which is canon) is right, we 
have a case where the werewolf!Lupin is not adequitely shielded from 
the rest of the WW. Either Dumbledore was the idiot or JKR messed up. 
I put the blame on JKR. <g>

Oh, and just for the record, the Marauders needed the rat to get into 
the Willow. Anybody can push the knot to freeze the branches on the 
way out.


> > Mike previously:
> > But canon shows that Snape fully intended to "drag the werewolf" 
> > out himself.
>  
> zgirnius:
> Canon shows what he threatened. I am not convinced he was sincere. 
> His statements about what he was going to do escalated throughout 
> the conversation.

Mike:
In his mind, Snape may not have left the castle with this intention. 
But when he snaps his fingers to make the ends of the cords binding 
Lupin fly to his hands, then makes the above comment, followed by his 
order to Harry get out of the way of the door, I submit that at this 
point there is no doubt what Snape intends on doing.


> zgirnius:
> You are ignoring my suggestion that he did not necessarily plan to 
> go in after Lupin, but rather to watch the exit for the appearance 
> (he hoped) of Black. Finding evidence that one or more students 
> were already in there would have changed his plans.

Mike:
OK, I'll address it. <g> If Snape had no intention of following Lupin 
when he left the castle, why did he leave in the first place? Why not 
just sit there with the Map and watch for Lupin and Black to reappear 
on the Map coming back out? Or take the Map with him, so he at least 
has a warning when they *are* coming out? 

Why not instead contact Dumbledore immediately? I find it hard to 
believe that he rushed out of the castle with the intention of 
reaching the Willow and sitting down in the grass, for who knows how 
long. How does that jibe with the Snape we've been presented so far?

And how does that jibe with the suspicious!Snape which you have 
presented and I agree with? Since he's been accumulating all this 
evidence against Lupin and this looks like his big breakthrough, is 
he likely to passively wait outside the Willow? IMO, it is far more 
likely that he left the castle with the intention to do exactly what 
he did do, follow Lupin into the Willow.
_______________________________________________________
 
Snape chasing after Lupin seems so irrational after what seems to be 
Snape taking a very rational, if somewhat vindictive, approach to 
implicate Lupin in Black's shenanigans. I don't know, maybe that's 
what JKR was going for. Snape certainly seems to come unhinged in the 
Shack when confronting his childhood nemesis, Sirius Black. Are we 
suppose to conclude that Snape loses perspective and lets his enmity 
swallow him up when it comes to dealing with the remaining Marauders?

Because, thats's what I'm left to conclude. I don't understand why 
Snape, who *was* a DE at the time, believed that Black had become a 
DE. Why would he not know that this was a patently false accusation 
against Black? He didn't have to stick his neck out for Black, I 
wouldn't expect him to, I certainly wouldn't in his shoes. But his 
actions in the Shack imply that he still believed this falsehood, one 
that he should have clearly been in position to know was false.

As Carol brought up on another thread, there is this problem with the 
traitor Pettigrew. We see the Marauders using their nicknames 
publically. There is no attempt to hide them. So whether the DEs knew 
the traitor as Pettigrew or as Wormtail, Snape *should* know who this 
refers to. 

Further, as houyhnhnm pointed out, the DEs (at least some of those in 
Azkaban) think the traitor is dead. And it is *common knowledge* that 
Pettigrew died in an altercation with Sirius Black over the Potter-
Voldemort affair. Again, Snape was still a DE, even if he had changed 
his allegiance by then.  So why does he persist in this belief that 
Black was the one who sold out the Potters? Again, I'm not saying he 
would or should come forward with this information. But in the Shack, 
my impression is that he is suppose to be unaware of Black's true 
status. Snape still blames Black for selling out the Potters. Is that 
a charactor flaw of Snape's to believe irrational things about 
Sirius? Or, as Jen has brought up, DDM or not, Snape wanted to see 
Sirius Black dead and was not above contributing to that end.

Or is this a plot hole that we aren't suppose to explore too closely?

Mike