What did Snape know, and When did he know it?

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 169351


Mike:
> In the Map questioning scene, I think both Lupin and Snape knew 
> exactly what the other was insinuating, but not saying it out loud in 
> front of Harry. Does anyone really think Snape thought the parchment 
> contained "Dark Magic" as he remarks to Lupin? I don't. So they are 
> both lying out loud, but they understand what each other really 
> thinks about each other.

Pippin:
Harry speculates more than once that the Map may contain Dark
Magic. He knows that  one of the wizards who participated
in its making later became a Death Eater, and another became
a DADA specialist. It certainly could be dark, especially in the
hands of a dark wizard. It has been used in the commission of
at least one murder, that of Barty Crouch Sr.

Mike:
> The problem I have with all this *evidence* is that it doesn't seem 
> to be enlightening Severus Snape to anything. Oh sure, the Marauder's 
> Map is something new and Snape cleverly deduces its true purpose. But 
> he catches Harry with it. And since he recognizes Black as one of 
> the "manufacturers", shouldn't that point to Black *not* needing any 
> *inside help* to get into the castle?

Pippin:
Lupin says himself that the manufacturers of the map would have
liked to get Harry out of the castle. Snape is not suspecting Lupin
of getting Sirius in, at this point, but of helping Harry to get out.
And Lupin is in fact responsible, both for making the map in the
first place, and for leaving the witch passage unguarded even after
he knew that Sirius might be using it to get in.

 Mike:
But why  would Snape think there were two traitors among the 
Marauders? Or one  traitor and one enabler, I guess. We are going 
to need to be shown  some strange goings on from the past to 
make me understand why Snape  should believe both Black and 
Lupin turned on their friend James  Potter. 

Pippin:
*Everyone* had a hard time understanding why Sirius should have
turned on James Potter. No one had an explanation beyond the
sheer seductiveness of evil " when a wizard goes over to ter the
Dark Side, there's nothin' and no one that matters to 'em anymore."
If that could affect Sirius, why not Lupin as well? Snape
believes this is possible because everyone believes it is possible.
  

Mike: 
> And if Snape believes, as we do, the Lupin is weak - the weak thing 
> to do does not include actively helping a *known* murderer kill the 
> son of your deceased, one-time good friend. The weak thing would be 
> to hide behind Dumbledore and do nothing, positive or negative, which 
> is what Lupin does. How can this be so hard for Snape to see, 
> especially with his past history and experience with the Marauders?

Pippin:
Except that Snape knows that the weak also hide behind Voldemort.
If he's DDM! he knows that the Dark Side didn't make him incapable
of caring about anyone. In fact, since much of canon seems to be
devoted to proving that the seductive power of evil is a myth, it's
probable that all the DE's see themselves and their friends as 
weak, while supposing that the other DE's are  truly evil.  But only 
the psychopaths like Voldemort are actually incapable of caring 
for anyone, and it was not the practice of dark magic that made 
him so, but genetic propensity exacerbated by neglect.

Mike:
> ***************************************************
> Before I go on, I want to air my opinion that PoA has *the* longest 
> running section of poorly written work, from a plot-making-sense 
> perspective. Starting where Dog!Sirius drags Ron into the Willow 
> and clear through to the final Hospital scene where Snape loses it. 
> This includes JKR's unfortunate choice to introduce time-travel, and 
> my biggest complaint, Lupin's transformation when the cloud shifts. 
> The unreasonableness of actions by many of her characters in this 
> section of the book, has led to many of us drawing completely 
> different conclusions for their actions. But, of course, that doesn't 
> stop us from debating. <BG>
> ***************************************************

Pippin:
EverSoEvil!Lupin resolves all the  plot holes in PoA, and yet for some
people this is its biggest drawback, as if manufacturing a theory
to fit the evidence is somehow not fair play. While Harry blithely
manufactures evidence to fit *his* theories, and we *know* he
does this, it is still considered somehow not cricket to assume
that Harry's theories are flat wrong.

> 
> Mike:> 
> When Dog!Sirius is dragging Ron into the Willow the limbs have *not* 
> been deactivated. One of them hits Harry while he has a handful of 
> Dog fur.

Pippin:
Or Sirius and Crookshanks were hiding *in* the Willow, and headed
out when they heard Ron shouting about Scabbers. They deactivated
the tree, Sirius rushed out, knocked Harry over, *turned around*
as  canon states, and then rushed back, grabbing Ron and
disappearing into the tree. The willow then started up again, and
Harry and Hermione got whomped.

Of course Lupin would have seen Sirius and Crookshanks on the
Map in this scenario, but then  he should have seen them anyway. It's
not a problem for ESE!Lupin,  however. <veg>

> Mike:
> OK, I'll address it. <g> If Snape had no intention of following Lupin 
> when he left the castle, why did he leave in the first place? Why not 
> just sit there with the Map and watch for Lupin and Black to reappear 
> on the Map coming back out? Or take the Map with him, so he at least 
> has a warning when they *are* coming out? 
> 

Pippin:
Because he would have seen TT!Harry and TT!Hermione on the grounds. He 
doesn't take the map because it's evidence of Lupin's perfidy and
also a reputed dark object.

Mike:
> Why not instead contact Dumbledore immediately? I find it hard to 
> believe that he rushed out of the castle with the intention of 
> reaching the Willow and sitting down in the grass, for who knows how 
> long. How does that jibe with the Snape we've been presented so far?

Pippin:
Whether he is DDM! or ESE!, Snape waited thirteen years or longer
with his motives in disguise before returning to Voldemort.


Mike:
> As Carol brought up on another thread, there is this problem with the 
> traitor Pettigrew. We see the Marauders using their nicknames 
> publically. There is no attempt to hide them. So whether the DEs knew 
> the traitor as Pettigrew or as Wormtail, Snape *should* know who this 
> refers to. 

Pippin:
Unless Snape  believes it refers to more than one person. Like Evans, or
Crouch or Riddle or Neville Longbottom or Ronil Wazlib.

Mike:
> Or is this a plot hole that we aren't suppose to explore too closely?


Pippin:
And yet if Lupin is the traitor, a weak traitor like Marietta instead
of a strong traitor like Crouch Jr, it all makes sense. 

Pippin